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September 19, 2011 | by  | in Opinion |
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Editorial – Mens

Now, boys, circle round, it seems there are few things it looks like we need to talk about. Just a quick check up that we’re all on the same page when it comes to, y’know, being good people.

Well, number one is, well, we all know that men aren’t the victims of modern society, right? When Elle and I sent out the email soliciting pitches for this edition of Salient we felt that we had to add—‘“Also, please don’t waste our time with any ‘men are now just as repressed as women were’ articles. Because, seriously, they’re not.” We had to put that there because that idea is becoming more popular. More and more people are pointing to the fact that all the men in advertising are idiots and claiming that as some victory by the fictional feminazis, while steadfastly ignoring that at least men get to keep their clothes on in the majority of advertising.

Yes, there are issues about men’s position in the real world and there is a men’s rights movement worth following. Sadly, it is not the ‘Men’s Rights’ movement. It’s feminism. Feminism seeks equality and fairness. Feminism acknowledges all imbalances in gender relationships. Feminism is seeking to allow anyone to walk down the street without being victimised; female, male or other. It just happens that women are the ones facing the more common and obvious brunt of that these days. ‘Men’s Rights’ purports to be about the same things but simply isn’t. Its attempts at readjusting the perceived power imbalance in the favour of women almost without exception fall into one of two camps; complaining about divorce law or, much more malevolently, an obsession with grotesquely exaggerating the occurrence of false rape claims, which does much to help support rape culture. We know that, that’s a bad thing, right? Because it really is.

We also know that when someone says ‘No’ it means you stop. Right? It makes me sad that we have to go over this but I have had too many discussions about rape and associated issues derailed by men starting to list exceptions as if there is any time ever where non-consensual sex is acceptable. There isn’t. There just isn’t. I don’t care if you think she is leading you on. I don’t care if you have ‘blue balls’. I don’t care if you think she’s just being coy and really actually does want to but just needs a little encouragement. No means no. You get verbal consent. Then you bone. That’s how it works.

Anyone who ever states otherwise is gravely misinformed about how things actually work, is angry that he doesn’t have anyone to suck his cock because he’s such a ‘nice guy’ and girls always go for ‘bad boys,’ or a misogynist. Usually all three. Usually without really meaning any harm either. But not knowing better is no excuse.

Look, I know it’s hard. You feel so gawky and awkward and all you can see is other people being happy. Girls holding hands and kissing lips that aren’t yours. What have you done wrong? You are nice and all that seems to happen is that you end up stuck in “the friend zone.” I’m tempted to say that “it gets better.” I won’t because that implies that there is some external force at work here. It will only get better when you stop wasting your time snarking about how women don’t like ‘nice guys’ like you and passing your casually hateful judgement against them, and actually start talking to them. Then things will get better. Don’t be a ‘nice guy,’ just be nice.

This seems harsh and direct. You know it all. You’ve heard it all before. But a lot of you seem to need to hear it again. Stop being douches guys. I’m fucking sick of it.
Glad we had this chat though,
Uther Dean

P.S. Dear all women,
Sorry about the looking at your boobs thing. We know you know. We know we aren’t good at hiding it. We wish we didn’t but we really can’t help it.
Soz,
All Men

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About the Author ()

Uther was one of the two arts editors in 2009. He was the horoscopier and theatre writer in 2010. Alongside Elle Hunt, Uther was coeditor in 2011.

Comments (54)

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  1. Shaun says:

    First of all Uther, I don’t think your problems with girls stem from you being a ‘nice guy’. More importantly, however there ARE men’s issues that deserve to be part of serious public discourse and articles like this only serve to alienate men who might otherwise take a genuine interest in discussions about gender issues.

  2. Steven Taylor says:

    DID YOU READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE?

  3. Uther Dean says:

    Yo. Shaun.

    Always happy to agree to disagree but can you please point out where in that editorial that I state that a) there aren’t men’s issues worthy of discussion in the public discourse, and b) that being a ‘nice guy’ is anything other than a bad thing? Because I’m pretty sure I didn’t say those things.

    Also, could you please clarify what you mean when you say that ‘I don’t think your problems with girls stem from you being a ‘nice guy’.’ Because it strikes me as the kind of useless, presumptuous ad hominem attack that really does a discredit to the internet discourse around these ideas that you clearly hold so dear and, to be honest, makes me question the intent of everything you say following it.

    Regards,

    Uther Dean

  4. Shaun says:

    Thank you for giving me the opportunity to elaborate. Perhaps I was a little unfair in the way I characterized your point of view; the point I was making is that in stressing the plight of women-specific issues, men specific issues are marginalized. You were very dismissive when referring to divorce law and false rape claims. I don’t mean to say that false rape claims are a genuine counterpoint to sexual assault but it is undoubtedly a problem that men face (it goes hand in hand with the very negative, though thankfully not too common, assumption that men are sexual predators).

    I would also point out that by limiting your contributors’ submissions with “‘Also, please don’t waste our time with any ‘men are now just as repressed as women were’ articles. Because, seriously, they’re not.’ is a negative approach to managing what is supposed be a forum for open and frank discussion. You happily admit that “We had to put that there because that idea is becoming more popular.” If it is becoming more popular, maybe we should be exploring why that is in an edition like this, not banning and panning them.

    The ad hominem attack I made might be poor form, but for clarity’s sake is a reference to your weight.

  5. Sean says:

    You are a disgrace to the name Sean for several reasons.
    1) Your parents spelt it wrong.
    2) Your argument is so flawed you felt the need to attack someone for something completely unrelated to the issue at hand.

    Salient isn’t a forum for open and frank discussion, it’s a place for a point of view to be shared. Whose point of view? The editor’s. Don’t like it, become the new editor or start your own paper.

  6. Shaun says:

    Lets not miss the irony here of you making a personal attack…

    Silly rhetorical mistakes aside though, do you really think a publication funded by OUR student association should just be the vehicle for the views of Uther? I find that kind of attitude laughable. A university magazine is not a forum for frank and open discussion? What about this comment thread? Perhaps I should have emailed Uther ahead of time and confirmed my views with him before I sullied what is clearly just a repository for his views and fan-boys like yourself.

  7. Sean says:

    Where did I make a personal attack? I just pointed out a spelling mistake. I was trying to be helpful.
    Also its not “our” student association, I’m working and my taxes are supporting you so you can sit here and whine on the internet about how just because you didn’t stop when she said no it shouldn’t be classed as rape.
    Shame on you sir.
    Shame on you.

  8. Shaun says:

    “You are a disgrace to the name ‘Sean'”. Sounds pretty fucking personal to me bro. Although perhaps not, as ‘Sean’ is not my name.

    In the interest of having at least a little bit of genuine discussion on this board, I will just ignore you from this point on; if you aren’t trolling then… well I think we have had enough of the personal attacks.

    As much as I disagree with Uther, at least he engaged my comments in what seemed like a genuine manner.

  9. Zoe Reid says:

    “I would also point out that by limiting your contributors’ submissions with “‘Also, please don’t waste our time with any ‘men are now just as repressed as women were’ articles. Because, seriously, they’re not.’ is a negative approach to managing what is supposed be a forum for open and frank discussion.”

    Uh, an editor’s request for articles within a magazine, is in no way supposed to be a forum for open and frank discussion. Topics are set at the start of the year, and each issue’s potential articles are thus already heavily limited by topic (thats the point btw, a theme). Uther is also one of two editors- not the only one. An editor’s job is to select and edit content. He’s doing his job.

    Any article claiming that ‘men are just as repressed as women’ lives in the realm of science fiction BS. It is a massively overarching statment made by one too many over priveliged (generally white, generally male) idiots, who have never been a part of a minority. Selecting against something like that is not the same as selecting against an article discussing one or many genuine men’s issues.

    Sounds like the chip on someones shoulder is related to something entirely different to Uther Dean.

  10. Sean says:

    Oooh, i’ve got a men’s issue!
    Depression! Depression in men and dealing with the “harden up” attitude a lot of people have.
    That’s a real issue men face, not being repressed by women, but by their own minds/each other.

  11. Shaun says:

    To paraphrase Uther in an earlier editorial, he said it was everybody’s publication and that content would reflect that. I am not disputing his right to select content, but I think a good editor selects a range of pieces that explore a range of opinions.

    Never did I, nor would I say that men are just as repressed as women. Surely though, an issue that is themed ‘gender issues’ should address a variety of them- not just sexual assault.

    If the magazine is not for frank and open discussion (ignoring the dwindling letters to the editor section I suppose), then surely the comment boards here are.

    As for chips on my shoulder, make no mistake- I despise Uther and the direction he has taken Salient in; but that doesn’t make my views any less valid.

  12. Sean says:

    Ok, serious face now.

    A magazine that tries to cover too many bases will fail. Have you heard the term “try to please everyone, please no-one”?

    You need to have a target audience and tailor your product to that audience. That way you know you are making that group happy and they will continue to enjoy your product.

    Consider a restaurant. You go out to a Mexican restaurant and enjoy a delicious fajita. You go back the next week and discover the restaurant has expanded its menu, they now also serve Spanish cuisene. “Cool” you think, “now I can bring my friend who hates Mexican food here!”

    You have the fajita again and your friend has a paella. They’re both good, but you swear it was better the last time.

    Imagine they continue adding new dishes from different cultures. Eventually the fajita is removed from the menu and the only thing they have from Mexico is a plate of nachos, which aren’t very tasty.

    What started as a great restaurant with a niche has turned into Valentines, a half arsed attempt to cover all the bases and managing to cover none of them well.

    This is why Salient needs to pick a theme/direction and go with it. That is the editor’s job.

  13. Uther Dean says:

    I had this really awesome, really reasonable response to some of your points ready Shaun. Then you posted that.

    It is nice to know that I am despised by someone. It means that I am doing my job.

    And no, the fact that you despise me doesn’t make your views any less valid. What makes your views less valid is that they are ill-reasoned, illogical and pointlessly antagonistic. You argue by relentlessly misconstruing other people and insulting them. That is not an argument, that is you repeatedly and publicly making a dick of yourself.

    I should not have responded to you. I am sorry for that. I should not have fed the troll. By engaging with you, I have given you the attention you so clearly crave. I apologise.

  14. Uther Dean says:

    Also, to clarify, the letters page has been reduced to one page for reasons of space not for lack of letters to put in them.

  15. Shaun says:

    Thank you for that extended, though dubiously relevant metaphor. I have absolutely no problem with themed editions of Salient. I think they provide a good framework for addressing a whole range of topics and including a wide range of readers.

    The direction I am referring to is the theater review heavy artsy piece of crap that has greatly diminished the readership. The editor will never please everyone, but they have a duty to make it relevant to and interesting for as many readers as they can. Uther and Elle have failed to do this.

  16. Uther Dean says:

    Also also, Shaun, if you want to write us a letter (letters@salient.org.nz) we would print it. Just have it in by Weds 5pm.

    And, for the record, there are, at most, 6 pages of arts content in most issues (the exception being the Arts issue and two issues with about 8 pages). That is a substantial reduction from previous years.

  17. Shaun says:

    You are right Uther, I have been needlessly personal at times. Frustration has got the better of me, not to mention the relative anonymity of this forum. If you want to use that as an excuse to not address the points I make, then so be it. But I thought you could be the bigger man here, being the mighty editor and all.

    Also, what exactly is keeping out letters? I suppose those pictures of Dr Who have to go somewhere. I just think its funny that despite all your posturing about trying to be a magazine for the entire student body, you reduce the only casual reader input…

  18. Uther Dean says:

    Mighty CO-editor, Shaun.

  19. Shaun says:

    Good work with that close and critical reading there Uther, really got to the heart of my comment.

  20. Elle Hunt says:

    Hi Shaun! Thanks for acknowledging my existence. Salient isn’t The Uther Show, you know. But neither is it The Uther And Elle Show. Since taking over the helm of Salient in February, we have made an earnest bid to engage with Victoria University by soliciting for new contributors, new ideas, and new opinions. In the 21 issues that we have co-ordinated so far, we’ve increased pick-up (sitting at around 94% on Kelburn campus), the number of first-time contributors, and engagement with the student body (via Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, office open days). Our ‘likes’ on Facebook—as good an indication as any as to the success of our efforts to connect with our readers—have increased steadily all year, and are now approaching 2,000. Though, having said that, that you deride Salient as being a “theater review heavy artsy piece of crap” is proof enough to me that you have barely opened a single issue all year. For pedantry’s sake, theatre is given an equal weighting to other arts disciplines, equating to six pages of content a week, while the other 42 feature news, views, opinions, and columns on science, sex, sport, happenings at Vic, queer rights, the law, the week in politics, and the week in animals.

    In conclusion, Shaun, fuck you.

  21. Uther Dean says:

    That’s why we co-edit, right there.

  22. no says:

    Everyone commenting on this article has made some good and valid points.
    Everyone commenting on this article has missed someone else’s point.
    Everyone commenting on this article has been petty at least once.
    Everyone commenting on this article wants to be acknowledged as right.

    Boo to this whole discussion.

    *bows*

  23. Shaun says:

    Exemplary conduct from one of the mighty co-editors.

  24. Nicola Wood says:

    Dear Shaun,

    Uther and Elle are great.

    Love from Nicola

  25. Gerald says:

    Why does the internet encourage all these trolls to come out and play? Do they not have other things to keep them occupied?

    For the record: Salient is pretty fucking good in my opinion.

  26. smackdown says:

    shaun more like yawn coz ur comments are a snooze

  27. dftba says:

    Is that a giant squid of anger? Uther, I didn’t know you were a nerdfighter!?

  28. Uther Dean says:

    Oh yes. That picture of Hank in Faces to Deface didn’t appear by accident and John and Henry have been known to make the occasional cameo.

    Elle won’t let me make the last issue ‘Looking for Alaskalient’ however.

  29. Adam says:

    “The direction I am referring to is the theater review heavy artsy piece of crap that has greatly diminished the readership”

    If anything, the arts section has gotten smaller this year – I know for Film we usually had two pages to play with and now we only have one, and theatre usually only has one-two pages.

    Wait…

    UTHER, STOP OPPRESSING THE FILM SECTION

    ALSO ELLE BECAUSE APPARENTLY YOU EXIST

  30. Adam says:

    White man problems, I have them.

  31. Pat Walsh says:

    http://designyoutrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/why_does_people_troll_ri17dmf46.jpg

    UTHER I CANNOT IMBED PICTURES :(

    But, you get the point.

    People like Shaun are the reason why the University raises their fees every year – to keep out retards like them. TROLOLOL.

  32. Pat Walsh says:

    Also, thought I would like to point out the obvious spelling mistake with a correction: *raise

  33. smackdown says:

    id like to point out this comment section has gotten funnier since shaun last posted (coincidence (probs not!))

  34. Uther Dean says:

    Fixed that for ya, Pat.

  35. Razlo-MRA says:

    “we all know that men aren’t the victims of modern society, right?”
    **Wrong. Men experience systematic discrimination in parenting, domestic violence policies, education, criminal sentencing, paternity, military conscription, public health policies, genital integrity, false accusations, reproductive rights, portrayal by the media & in the coverage of their issues by the news media.
    You only mentioned the misandric portrayal of men in the media which you think is white washed because “at least men get to keep their clothes on in the majority of advertising”.
    Firstly, more than a few ads depict scantly clad men. Second, ever seen a woman’s magazine? Clearly women don’t seem to take issue with exposed women’s bodies. Otherwise those magazines wouldn’t guarantee that on their covers. Third, ads seek to appeal to what each sex desires in a mate. Complaining about the disproportionate numbers of scantly clad men is erroneous because its not the same. Men covet youthful, beautiful women. Ergo, we can expect a lot more ads seeking to appeal to men (& women) featuring young attractive women in less clothing.

    “Yes, there are issues about men’s position in the real world and there is a men’s rights movement worth following. Sadly, it is not the ‘Men’s Rights’ movement. It’s feminism.”
    **Absurd. This is like saying nazism holds the solution for anti-semitism. Behind every misandric policy or mandate oppressing men, is a feminist or a chivalrous mangina. Equality & fairness is the last thing feminism seeks. Feminism is & always has been solely about female supremacy & the denigration of men. The only men feminism pretends to care for are homosexual men or chivalrous schnooks who defer to women & devote themselves utterly to feminist causes. And even then, these men are thrown under the bus if they EVER say anything critical of feminism or in favor of men. Opposing feminism is the default position of not just Men’s Rights Activists, but for anybody who is FOR equality.

    “It just happens that women are the ones facing the more common and obvious brunt of that [imbalance] these days.”
    **Given that men make up over 80% of the homeless, are over 4 times more likely to commit suicide, & are the majority of rape victims, I would like to see the evidence of that. Really.

    “[the MRM] attempts at readjusting the perceived power imbalance in the favour of women almost without exception”
    **False. All told the US state extends over 160 race & gender based preference programs.–(Hollander Paul. Discontents: Post Modern & Postcommunist. p59). These policies put women & minorities into positions of power not because of performance but because of superficial qualities that are meaningless. The men’s rights movement is about abolishing these patronizing policies & re-establishing competition. Ones genitals or race does not make them a better/more qualified candidate. MRA’s don’t consider women incompetent or inferior beings who cannot succeed without unfair advantages. We want everyone to EARN their way in life.

    “…complaining about divorce law or, much more malevolently, an obsession with grotesquely exaggerating the occurrence of false rape claims.”
    **Firstly, the focus of the MRM on these issues is legitimate & our contentions are justified. Men win a mere 8% of child custody battles to women’s 85%. Additionally, many men are being forced to pay alimony to women they no longer love & child support for children they cannot even see. On top of that, roughly 30% of children are being raised by men who aren’t the child’s real father. This is paternity fraud, & there is currently ZERO legislation punishing women who commit this crime.

    “We also know that when someone says ‘No’ it means you stop. Right?”
    **We also know that “yes” means “yes” at 9:00 pm when consensual sex takes place, but also means “no” at 9:00 am the following morning IF she regrets her 100% consensual sex, right? We also know that 40-60% of rape allegations are false according to the False Rape society, right? Thats a stat feminism (your champions of men’s rights) seek to suppress in their rape culture. I guess you agree with how that Antioch women’s center advocate explained sex to freshmen: “If you want to take her blouse off, you have to ask. If you want to touch her breast, you have to ask. If you want to move your hand down to her genitals, you have to ask. If you want to put your finger inside her, you have to ask.”…..woooo, talk about passion! Its like fucking a civil servant. Men, make sure you also have the correct forms filled out in triplicate.

    “Anyone who ever states otherwise is gravely misinformed about how things actually work, is angry that he doesn’t have anyone to suck his cock because he’s such a ‘nice guy’ and girls always go for ‘bad boys,’ or a misogynist”
    Oh standard. Anybody who refuses the shit burger of feminism & its rape culture is a “hater” who can’t get laid. Total disregard for the men falsely accused of rape. Total disregard for the fact “rape” under feminism’s definition, is ANYTHING a woman who FEEELS victimized says it is.

    And then you go on & on with this baseless & ridiculous assertion that the motivation for anti-feminists or MRAs is a lack of sex. How boringly predictable. One’s sex life has absolutely NOTHING to do with the substance of one’s arguments. Please try to actually, think & respond.
    Also predictable is that you would apologize on behalf of all men for “looking at your boobs”. LOL, listen little boy, you certainly don’t speak for me or any self-respecting man. We look at chicks breasts all the time. We’re also unapologetic about that because we’re men & its natural. Women know this & expect you to look. That is why they put them on a platter & get very self-conscious about their chests.
    Pussy begging isn’t a virtue, & neither is being a schnook who sells out his entire sex to gain the attention &/or approval of bigots. My advice to you, mangy, is to learn what something is about before you talk about it with assumed authority.

  36. John B says:

    Agree with Shaun’s second post. This editorial is complete BS.

    I suggest Uther check out the following statistics for males v females before effectively dismissing any imbalances that favour women over men: suicide, workplace deaths, homelessness, life expectancy, incarceration rates, education, divorce/family court judgements (nothing at all wrong with pointing out the inequality in this area). That list doesn’t include any of the unambiguous things either. How much has the feminist movement done for equality in these areas? Fuck all.

    Does something need to be done any time men and women are different?

  37. Uther Dean & Elle Hunt says:

    Yep.

  38. Rachael C says:

    I’d also add rape as a male issue. Specifically female-on-male rape. It’s an invisible epidemic. Look at this frightening statistic based on samples of college students across the globe:

    * Almost 3% of men reported forced sex and 22% reported verbal coercion in a romantic relationship in the last year. Almost 2.3% of women reported forced sex and 25% reported verbal coercion. From: Predictors of Sexual Coercion. http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf

    Remember, rape in romantic relationships is a significant portion of all rape, as much as 76%.

    All of the figures on the relative rape of men and women put out by most main stream organizations that deal with rape are based on studies that exclude most forms of female-on-male assault. This includes the 1-in-33 men will be rape victims or men are the victims of 10% of all rapes.

    So where are the campaigns for male victims of rape? Where are the ‘respect your boyfriend’s no’ campaigns directed towards female college students (at least 3% of whom are apparently physically forcing their male partners into sex?)

  39. Caitlin says:

    An oppressed group (women) cannot oppress the oppressors (men) before some form of equality is achieved.

    But, you know, WHERE’S MY MEN’S SPACE?

  40. John B says:

    Caitlin

    How exactly are women oppressed in New Zealand society? Should we not ask why the statistics I highlighted in a previous post are what they are? Writing off inequality when it favours women isn’t striving for equality, it’s feminism.

    Uther Dean & Elle Hunt

    dat mature and well reasoned response

  41. Zoe Reid says:

    Wow, maybe those commenting here should, you know, make an effort to pull those men’s rape campaigns, those ‘respect your boyfriend’s no’ campaigns, and the men’s room–

    No wait, they’re too busy trolling on the internet and getting angry at men and women alike who do actively try to get some equality in this world.

    Sorry, that’s not fair. The feminists, male and female alike, who are arguing against you fucks are actively working towards equality with things like writing in, actually creating, or supporting a mag which this year turned down the idea of a women’s issue to give men’s issues equal breathing room.

    Feminism by definition is about equality for men and women. Historically, women are the oppressed- modern day, many would argue that feminism focusses more on inequalities for women than in bridging the gender divide in all senses. Some feminists, I’m sure, are not interested in being equal to men but would like to be treated better than men.
    The Men’s Rights Movement is about fixing inequality for men, when they are the aggrieved party. Some involved, I’m sure, are not interested in being equal to women but would like to be treated better than them.
    Both are legitimate movements with legitimate causes, ideals, and concerns- there are issues for Men’s rights just as there are for Women’s. Overreacting and being a royal asshole because you feel your movement is only legitimized when the other movement is put down is just pathetic and does nothing for equality of the sexes.

  42. wissler says:

    Fuck you, you ignorant piece of shit!

  43. c0mputar says:

    Have kids, get divorced, and come back here and let us know how fair the system is for men.

  44. Adam says:

    Hey guys, realise – there’s danger in emotional ties.

  45. darkam says:

    Educate yourselves

    http://www.articlesaboutmen.com/2010/10/12-indisputable-indicators-that-men-are-second-class-citizens-in-the-usa-911/

    FIGHT THE FEMINIST SCUM AND THEIR ALLIES

    Equality cannot be achieved when feminist dictated the talk and we are told to shut up by dear Uther and Elle.

    Soon for a single out of place comment you will be thrown into jail and school will be completely feminized and ineffective in teaching boys.

    Think for yourselves.

  46. Razlo-MRA says:

    @ Zoe & Caitlin & any other nitwit who thinks women are (or were oppressed) & that feminism is concerned with men’s rights, you’re an idiot. If you think feminism is or ever was a movement for equality, you are a total moron. Feminism is & ALWAYS was NOTHING but a female supremacist movement sold as a movement for equality. The so called “women’s liberation movement” was an unjustified fucking joke. You cannot liberate a group of people who are already free, & in fact, the most privileged members of society.

    The Myth of Women’s Oppression:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/TheHappyMisogynist#p/a/u/2/oMzcMATRGmE

    Quotes from feminists. (Straight out of the pigs mouth):
    -“kill your fathers, not your mothers”.-Robin Morgan
    -“To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.”-Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto
    -“We can’t destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage.”-Robin Morgan (former child actor turned American radical feminist activist, writer, poet, and editor of Sisterhood is Powerful and Ms. Magazine.)
    More at:
    http://antimisandry.com/feminist-misandry/feminist-quotes-20106.html

    I don’t want to hear any more bullshit about feminists being the champions of men’s rights. What an UTTER load of crap. That’s like saying nazism was for jewish rights. Get fucked you serial dissenters!

  47. Electrum Greenstone says:

    Homo sapiens will never be a more civilised animal unless the dominion of men is broken and Women everywhere are given greater leadership powers in all areas of life — this much should be obvious from the nature of this thread.

    All that is necessary for the dominion of men to persist is for good men to do nothing.

    Think for yourselves. The fact that a state of affairs is widespread and has persisted for a long time does not mean it was like this in the beginning, or how it should go on into the future. It certainly does not mean it is just.

    Homo sapiens of the world, unite!

    P.S. ” black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed “

  48. Kerry Tankard says:

    Hi Uther (and Elle),

    I was meaning to drop by and add a quick ‘that was a fab editorial, Uther’, after belatedly reading this issue late on Thursday night, having stolen a copy from the Central City Library foyer (thanks, unused fees from 2009 that I still haven’t received back after pulling my MA thesis…), but having just spent the past few minutes reading all the comments, there’s a few more words I’d like to add.

    1) This just neatly illustrates why Gender and Women’s Studies was needed on this campus.
    Having had a quick squint in the Library on campus just last week, I now know I can’t even refer texts to the dickwads for further reading, as they have been removed from the 3-day loans, closed reserves and regular shelving. Shame, those ignorant people are just gonna continue hating …

    2) Masculinities have only scarcely been taught on this campus, ever.
    Otago University ranks as one of the few NZ campi to have developed proper studies in masculinity, and again, course cuts have ensued to further deprive future students of the capability to move beyond ad hominem arguments.

    3) From this follows the corollory conclusion:
    for the first time, Uther, you have managed to get more controversy from the Men’s editorial than from the Women’s editorial, at least since the Women’s Issue stopped being an entire issue of Salient in it’s own right.
    These attacks may represent a new historical low in thinking around sexualities on campus, but for the record, as a radical feminist who has been abused roundly for writing articles in this very student magazine in the past, I salute you for the stand taken, and you got your first “WOW” out of me this year, as I read my copy last night. Yay you!

    The contributions were all up to an amazing standard (yep, I was a sub-editing grammar-nazi for a while too …) and thus I won’t name individual articles, just saying they all, page after page, kept me glued to the magazine. NB: this does not happen often, just drop my name by JJWood & you’ll discover how frequently I criticised shallow content in his days as editor!

    Lastly, to the various dickwads I have referred to above, who are resorting to ad hominum attacks and trying to win a trolling argument by linking to dodgy web content – you came to university FOR AN EDUCATION – lots of your peers from secondary school are no longer able to get entry to uni ‘cos there isn’t enough government funding to satisfy the entire annual secondary cohort moving into tertiary – so don’t waste your time on campus faffing about trolling, either get intelligently engaged in topics or fuck off back home to mummy and daddy & let someone who genuinely wants to learn have place at uni.

    NOW flame that … that actually is radical feminism, which some of you wouldn’t recognise if it came up behind you and set your arse on fire.

    I’ve never claimed to be about ’empowering men’, ffs, if you want to sit around whining go ahead, or you could just copy what my mother’s generation did (prolly your grandmothers) and put some effort into finding out how to empower yourselves.
    The main problem men have is that they have so much unacknowledged privilege that they can’t actually see how much further up the ladder of success they start out than most women do; being so concerned with competing against one’s male peers makes any consideration of competition from female peers very risky, thus the panic attacks when there is any kind of affirmative action occurring, or even just being discussed.

    yours very autonomously and radically,

    Kerry Tankard

  49. Adam says:

    Hey Razlo –

    Radical feminists (who are, as every POLS114 student/person with common sense knows, represent an incredibly small minority of feminists) are basically you without a penis. You are literally just as awful as them.

    I hope this has helped you gain some perspective and perhaps it’ll save you from staring into the abyss (spoiler alert: it probably won’t).

  50. Alpha says:

    It IS possible to support men’s issues when men are the aggrieved party AND support women when the inverse is true.

    Feminism, as I have seen it, and although this is a generalisation, supports women’s causes. Largely, they are right to do so (rape, domestic abuse, the gender gap).

    The MRM (are men even allowed an -ism?) does the opposite, as and when it is necessary (the marginalisation of men as possible rape victims, the assumption that men are rapists, divorce law, the complete lack of possibility of men’s abortion (of their responsibilities to a child they do not wish to have).

    BOTH genders have legitimate causes. While Uther does not ignore them, he does marginalise them. It is possible to support mens’ AND womens’ issues.

    That .gif of Elle is very offensive.

    [Male abortion: If a woman who I have intercourse with becomes pregnant, and I want a child yet she wants an abortion, there will be an abortion. If a woman who I have intercourse with becomes pregnant and I do not wish to take on the responsibility of being a parent, and she wants to take the child to term, the child will be taken to term and I will be forced against my will to contribute materially to the child’s upbringing. To support the right of choice for women but not men is sexual discrimination.]

  51. Waren says:

    Boy, that was a pretty alienating and patronising article, Uther. But then, noting the disappointing scholastic achievements of guys, perhaps it needed to be. It’s not the schools failing, it’s blokes being ignorant, uncaring and just plain douches.

    Right on, Alpha.

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