30/07/07
by

How to rip off WINZ

It is a fact that some students will not be working at the end of this semester. Some may even end up on the unemployment benefit. So it is important to learn how to maximise this, particularly if you have finished your studies and are looking for that dream job to avoid winging your way to Australia. However, there are other loop-holes for those intending to be on a benefit temporarily.

So, if you are considering going on a benefit, here’s how to survive. If you are unlucky enough not to have a job (or lucky enough to pick up a part-time job for a few months), go on a benefit. Benefits are low enough as it is, because the Government refuse to give beneficiaries enough for a reasonable standard of living. So they give top-ups, instead. As a beneficiary, you will get a Community Services Card which will give you, among other things, cheaper visits to the doctor – even if you get a job, and go off the benefit, the following week.

You can earn up to $80 a week without having your benefit touched – but it will be abated if you earn between $80 and $350 a week. Your accommodation supplement won’t be touched unless your benefit is suspended.

So, will you get your full and correct entitlement? Wellington Regional Manager Mike Bryant thinks so. When asked whether Case Managers were aware and made sure that clients get full and correct entitlements, he paused – before eventually saying “yes”. He later added, “I would say that most clients are getting their full and correct entitlement.”

However, benefit advocate Stephen Ruth from the People’s Centre wouldn’t agree. His response, when asked if clients were getting correct payments:

“Certainly not!”

Ruth deals with people every day who are not getting their entitlements and has his own views as to why this is the case. “It’s a combination of insufficient training and not being aware of their clients’ circumstances.”

If you are not on a benefit, as a result of earning approximately $400-600 a week, but have significant accommodation costs – perhaps a mortgage – get the accommodation supplement as a non-beneficiary.

If you have had essential maintenance costs in the past year – such as spending $1000 on the house that’s about to fall over – add that on to increase the amount, and put the extra $30 or so each week towards paying your $1000 loan. When your bank balance runs dry (because you’ve paid your speeding ticket, or spent too much going clubbing), you can get financial assistance through Work and Income and – in some cases – you don’t have to pay it back.

Has your old cell phone died? If you are on the unemployment benefit, pay WINZ a visit. Tell them you are looking for work, and they’ll give you a new one (if you haven’t got a landline). You can then use your student card to surf the internet over the holidays. Urgently need to go to the dentist? Make sure your bill is $300 or less, and you can go for free. WINZ will pay it for you if you can’t. If it’s likely to be around $600, pay $10 every four weeks for membership to the People’s Centre and get their dentist to do it for under $300, paid for by WINZ. They’ll give you a root filling for $305. You pay $5, or, as with expensive treatments, get the balance over $300 with a WINZ interest-free loan and pay it back at $10 a week. To do this, you must have less than $892.69 in the bank and earn less than $468.64 a week (if you are single), less than $1487.46 and earn less than $680.66 (if you are partnered). As a People’s Centre member, you can also get cheap massages; doctors’ appointments; counselling; acupuncture and foot and hand care.

If you happen to get a dream temporary job for 9 weeks, paying $2000 a week, don’t cancel your benefit – have it suspended, instead. However, if it is suspended for more than 8 weeks it will automatically be cancelled, with no warning. So, to avoid this happening, just resume your benefit for a day after week 6. Then simply suspend it again, and the 8 week cycle will restart. Voila! You won’t have the hassle of reapplying for the benefit once your job has finished.

Then, when you have finished your job, spend your money quickly.

Buy lots of alcohol. Pay off your credit card. If your power bill is $350, don’t pay it – pay your phone bill instead. That’s because you can apply for a power advance – essentially an interest free loan – from WINZ. And, according to Bryant, they may be able to pay for it even if your name is not on the power bill.

“We look at each individual’s circumstances. If their name is not on the power bill, it makes it more complicated.”

“It doesn’t matter whose name it is,” Ruth admits. “There’s been a High Court Case that has tested that out.” But he acknowledged that even though each person in your flat may be entitled to a proportion of the bill, WINZ will pay the bill in full should an advance be applied for, letting the other flatmates off the hook – even if one is not a student, but a high earner.

If you are in a flat and you can’t pay the bill the following month, have your unemployed student flatmate get the advance. You’ll just have to pay WINZ (or Studylink, if you’re on a Student Allowance) back at about $10 for 35 weeks. However, if you have to choose between paying for power, food, speeding fines or credit cards, what do you do?

You pay your fines. Ruth says you may also want to pay your power bill, and pay more towards your credit card, too. “If you pay your power bill and that means you have insufficient money for food, then you can get a food grant.”

You can get up to $150 each time – even if you are on a Student Allowance – and you don’t have to pay it back. According to benefit advocates, the best time to go to WINZ or Studylink is during the end of the week, as you are more likely to get a larger payment. Your unemployed student flatmate can get a food grant the following week, and the third flatmate can do so the week after that. Good way to stock up. If you still can’t pay your power bill, get an advance from WINZ at the same time.

However, you must have a low bank balance. So pay your credit card off in full beforehand; even pay it off early, if you need to. There are maximum annual limits to advances but Bryant, off the top of his head, wasn’t able to tell me what they were, or even what they were based on. “I wouldn’t like to say whether they were guidelines or legislation – I’ll get back to you on that.”

He never did.

For the record, the limits are guidelines. They have no basis in legislation. That is why WINZ managers have discretion to exceed them, as Bryant explained.

“In certain circumstances, we have the ability to approve payment above the maximum. But Case Managers cannot make payments above the maximum without the approval of the Service Centre Manager.”

But what if the Service Centre Manager fails to approve? “Well, you go to a benefit advocate, and you’ll get your advance,” Ruth says.

What if you get kicked out of your council flat? Easy. You have to find another flat and get an advance for rent and the bond. The Council takes so long to refund bond money that by the time you need it for your next flat, wouldn’t you be able to get a WINZ advance for 2 weeks rent and bond – and pay it back at $10.00 a week with the money you eventually get back from the Council? “That’s possible,” Ruth says. “All you have to do is show that you have an immediate and essential need.”

Need some furniture? Get an advance to pay for some cheap furniture – then, if you don’t want it anymore when you have sufficient funds to buy better stuff, see if you can sell it on TradeMe for more than WINZ paid for it at the Sallies.

So, you’ve just gone on the benefit but have a job interview. You don’t want the job but you could do with the interview practice. Why not get $250 worth of clothes for the interview? You can, and you don’t have to pay it back. Alternatively, get $125 worth of clothes and get the rest either before the next interview or when you start work, as $1500 is the annual maximum.

You’ve found out that you are pregnant. You’re single. Baby is due over the holidays. Go on the Sickness Benefit at the end of the term and then onto the DPB once your child is born. Then apply for the Training Incentive Allowance for next year’s studies, have much of your fees paid for you and stay on the benefit. It’s better than getting a loan for living costs – and the balance of your student fees is paid for with an interest-free student loan. You can get a childcare subsidy from WINZ, and claim a proportion of the balance of your childcare costs back through IRD at the end of the financial year.

And if your head is lacking hair and you look so disfigured that you need a wig, you can apply for that too – provided you need it on cosmetic grounds and the District Health Board can’t meet the costs. While you’re there, you may want to apply for a vasectomy while you are waiting. Vasectomies have to be done while you wait, actually. You can get up to $300 for each, provided the District Health Board can’t meet the full costs.

So: you’ve had your abortion, got your urgent dental treatment, vasectomy, food grant and power advance. You’ve got a degree on the back of a Training Incentive allowance. It’s time to get a job. You’ve got your cell phone and a job interview, along with a work start grant for clothes and other essentials. Work for a mate, and that mate could get a WINZ subsidy up to $16,900 spread throughout the year to pay for your wages. That subsidy will then in turn pay for the employer contributions to your KiwiSaver scheme from April – so then you’ll have enough money to pay your contribution, until you get the job you really want.

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  1. Evee says:

    Thanks for perpetuating the stereotype of a lazy and unmotivated dole bludging student you fuckwit. Not all of us choose to live this way.

  2. dave says:

    ummm.. this is not actually “ripping off” WINZ, every thing here is actually legal. A rip-off is often seen as breaking the law or doing something dodgy.

  3. Phillip says:

    Yeah, because Salient has never sensationalised a heading before…

  4. Nick Archer says:

    And there is some actually good information that a lot of students will find really helpful. For example when you finish study and you don’t have a job lined straight up get a food grant when you apply for the unemployment benefit to tie you over during the one week stand down period. Also $250 clothing grant for a job interview as you will have only been buying sneakers and jeans over the period of your study and you will need a suit. And finally why not use the Training Incentive Allowance if you are eligible…

  5. Brad Schmidt says:

    Good article – this country treats students appallingly – no wonder there is a brain drain! The Government either wants to trap students with a lifetime mortgage called a student loan, or see youth remain uneducated. Students are the most-suffering group in this country and it is deeply immoral and unfair. Education should not just be for the rich, as it is today. The rich are usually brain-dead from being so out of touch with reality.

  6. amen says:

    Judging by your comment Brad you must earn a lot of money…

  7. Tracey says:

    This is not ripping off WINZ – This is ripping off the tax payers.

  8. Greg Saw says:

    Maybe it is WINZ workers who need to be aken to court to explain why they do not give full entitlement unless we begg then threaten legal action.

  9. Hahn says:

    I have just finished training, it took 3 and a half years. i have full medical and dental cover, cheap accommodation (i live in auckland, the most expensive city to live in). i have the opportunity to travel all over the world including antartica for free, not to mention up and down nz twice a week. i was being paid to learn and paid between courses, and therefore have no student loan. in fact i have savings. i had a job as soon as i finished training. i have no sympathy for students moaning about money. there are other ways to live without ripping of the NZ tax payer!, My job may not be for everyone but seeing what you guys get, the nzdf rocks!

  10. barry says:

    get a job and stop spending my tax money!

  11. Paul says:

    I think that many of your readers are missing the point, you are simply pointing out what many unemployed people already do. New Zealand needs to simplify its benefits system, beneficaries should get thier benefit and that is all, no extras. Either the benefit is enough to live off and you dont need all these extra handouts, or the benefit needs to be raised.

    There is no excuse for having all of these “optional” extra that case workers can distribute to clients that they like and withhold from those they dont. They encourage beneficiaries to mis-manage thier money, and this breeds dependence on the benefit.

    Why should someone who gets pregnant, goes to prison, or simply doesnt work and lives on a benefit for long enough get their student fees paid for out of a training allowance, while someone who has never depended on a benefit has to pay for thier own?

    BTW, I am not a student, or a beneficary, and I havent been for many years.

  12. 'Laura' says:

    I am a mother on DPB, and am appalled by your article. Being unable to work full time I work part time, and am worse off due to the abatement system and secondary taxation and no I am not a student. Your article has gone nationwide.
    When despite my hard work I cannot adequately shoe and clothe my children during winter or keep bills up to date because of high charges, then I see you encouraging people to try and get free cellphones and clothing for jobs they don’t want I think you have a jolly nerve. As someone who is going to be one of our future professionals your sense of ethics is in the gutter. Having left my number on the Salient answerphone if you’re even half the journalist you claim to be, I challenge you to ring it and hear the real story. Of what life is really like on a benefit. Not just as an individual wanting to party at the taxpayer’s expense, but as a family for whom spending decisions mean paying bills in full or feeding/clothing growing children. Oh and when they get sick having to owe the doctor. .

  13. Bryce says:

    Excellent article. the ‘mass mediaisation’ of this article has made people sit up and take notice! The beehive will be buzzing again, to try and introduce a law to close this loophole ! They are always doing this aye! Good stuff for Campbell LIve and Close up

  14. Blair says:

    Sailent is an embarasment to Victoria University.
    It’s ashame that you encourage our students, future leaders to participate in your disgusting way of life.

  15. Mitch says:

    How sad, that in order to take advantage of, or even just use a system set up to help New Zealanders one must come to an article like this.
    I am a full time employed Kiwi, have a $14.000 student lone and the $160 taken from my pay each week for this is just enough to make life hard.
    Being able to get for example an accommodation supplement will make a really difference. This is Tax I pay, so why shouldn’t I take advantage of it? If the government is offering a new cell phone, why would someone like me put it on hire purchase when WINZ will save me the burden and enable me to get on with life without being further disadvantaged by my student debts.
    Of course this could be abused, but when all is said and done it is to the credit of NZ that we have this option.
    “Laura” should take stock of just how she is able to live based her WINZ income, just try doing that in Fiji, Perth, or many other countries, she has is better than many!

  16. CECIL says:

    HAY DAVE YOU N00B WHILE YOU WERE FINGERING THAT PIE THIS MORNING I RIPPED OFF YOUR HOUSE AND SLEPT WITH YOUR BOYFRIEND

  17. TJ says:

    The main reason people don’t get their “Full and correct entitlement” is because they do not tell their case manager ALL the FACTS about their situation. They Lie and omit and only say what they think case managers want to hear. And they base that on what other equally ill informed people have told them about what they heard their friends cousins aunt heard someone got.
    So if you want you entitlement stop seeing your case manager as the enemy and be honest with them and yourself, you’ll be suprised and how it will change your life!
    Remember by encouragaing other to “rip-off” the systems by making themselves look worse off tan they are to maximise their benefits, it money theGoverment could be using to make the life of the student better, the student who will become a tax payer with their degree, whose money are they ripping off then?

  18. TJ says:

    The main reason people don’t get their “Full and correct entitlement” is because they do not tell their case manager ALL the FACTS about their situation. They Lie and omit and only say what they think case managers want to hear. And they base that on what other equally ill informed people have told them about what they heard their friends cousins aunt heard someone got.
    So if you want you entitlement stop seeing your case manager as the enemy and be honest with them and yourself, you’ll be suprised and how it will change your life!
    Remember by encouragaing other to “rip-off” the systems by making themselves look worse off tan they are to maximise their benefits, it money theGoverment could be using to make the life of the student better, the student who will become a tax payer with their degree, whose money are they ripping off then?

  19. Nick says:

    It would be interesting to know why ‘Laura’ you don’t work full time, because it sounds like you choose to earn the minimum amount to keep yourself on the DBP. In other words you choose to be on a benefit. Students don’t choose to be on a benefit, because they are actually educating themselves rather than sitting round collecting welfare. They are on a benefit because the course takes X time in their week and (although most have part time jobs) therefore they are unable to work. However collecting the DPB is a CHOICE, so I’m not sure what you are whinging about.

    Talk about a bludger calling a bludger a bludger!

  20. Mitch says:

    You hit it right on the head with that one Nick.

  21. Andrea says:

    Hey – why shouldn’t the hardworking, law-abiding student, studying for a degree (to help this country out with his knowledge and to fill those vacant job positions with New Zealanders rather than ‘imports’) receive help from W&I. Just remember those jailbirds are receiving all the same help for free too – and they don’t have to take out student loans which have to be paid back! A quicker way to access all this free help would be to get on into the ‘inside’ – I heard it’s like a ‘holiday camp’!

  22. Hahn says:

    Yea, and join the ranks of labour supporting, dole bludging, economy draining ,blood sucking parasites… i guess you will be in the minority and it wont last, hang on its mmp, doesnt work like that! who was it who said “Get a job ya Bum!!!”?

  23. Heather says:

    Great info here, wonder if Superanuatants are able to procure some of these great things. i wonder what entitlements we are able to get that we are not informed about.
    Must give some a go. Thanks

  24. dave says:

    all of these schemes are a load of shit, Im a student that does not get shit from the govt… i choose to work my ass off throughout the semester every year to gain a qualification that will further myself and contribute to the countries skilled professionalism… and what do i get at the end of the year? a fucken tax bill because i earn t over the income threshold with my part time job that i need to pay for my studies. which in turn requires me to pick up more hours to pay off the fucken bill. a vicious cycle. i work hard and pay my taxes for fucken auntie Helen and her labour sidekicks to give to all the lazy fucks out there not prepared to work for a legit living.

  25. dave says:

    Hi guys, a few more thoughts, for those who think some students should just ” get of their arse” and get a job while studying, well, some students have kids they haveto put to bed at night and stay home while they are in bed. Single people can get jobs easily.

    Also, if you are getting a power advance from work and income, they`ll tell you that you have to have not just a bill thats due, not just an overdue bill, but a disconnection notice. THey told at least three people that today. They told me that when I rang up – and when I said what does your legislation say -do you know what the call centre person said.

    “Whats legislation?

    She didn`t even know what legislation was. Duh

    These people are in debt to the power company as a result of not being able to pay their bill at the discounted amount. They haveto wait til they get an overdue bill pluys a $100 disconnection notice.

    Legislation allows bills to be paid at discounted amount if there is an immediate and essential need – ie the bill has to be paid – but the case managers don’t allow it.

  26. dgdgdg says:

    sdsadsadsad

  27. Samuel says:

    Dave your article should be much benefit to needy students of the nation. It is appalling how winz treat students. Part time workers also get treated badly and end up owing winz money. Winz never has enough time to see you either. I have no problem with beneficiaries getting all the money they can off the system.
    Remember the national party started the student loans and benefit cuts.

  28. Paul says:

    Sydney, that is precisely the problem, it should not be up to the case manager, it should be set in stone, written down so that everyone can access it, or nobody can. The circumstances under which you qualify need to be written as well.

    You can not have a system that allows the case managers to give taxpayers money to some beneficaries and not to others based on how they feel.

    That is why I think that all of these extras abolished completely. If that would not leave people enough to live on then the benefit has to be raised.

  29. Cassidy says:

    Greg Saw
    August 3rd, 2007 at 12:57 pm

    Maybe it is WINZ workers who need to be aken to court to explain why they do not give full entitlement unless we begg then threaten legal action.

    GRED SAW AND TO ANYONE ELSE WHO IS IGNORANT TO THE WORK THAT CASE MANAGERS ACTUALLY DO….

    The WORK AND INCOME case managers ( its no longer called winz dipshit) arent the ones that should be held responsible for not giving full entitlement, its the legislation and pressures from government and service centre managers that should be diciplined. As a former case manager i was hired by WORK AND INCOME at a very young age and would say that most case managers give as much as they are able to get away with.

    Fuck people are stupid.

    Saying people should take Work and Income workers to court for DOING THEIR JOB is like takin your credit card company to court because they fined you for not paying your overdue bill.

  30. Adam says:

    ‘Laura’: IRD can look upon two full-time jobs, or a part-time job and an income from WINZ, as equivalent to one full-time job, so I’ve heard, and therefore you don’t need to pay secondary taxation. I suggest you make an appointment at the IRD to talk over this possible opportunity for you to keep more of what you earn.

  31. Adam says:

    I mean, two part-time jobs, or a part-time job and assistance from Work and Income.

  32. gogo says:

    interesting article…
    my view is, if u are entiltled u are entitled…
    however, most of the time we do not get we are entitled to due to the judgements of work and income workers.
    i recently required urgent dental care and was on the bones of my arse. when i approached the local winz to where i live which is based in one of the lowest socio economic areas in new zealand, i got the feeling as soon as i walked in that i was a little too ‘white’ and a little to well dressed to be welcomed. i was told to go back the next day as i apparently didn’t have the ‘right’ documents with me.
    the next day i was drilled by a woman wanting to know what i could possibly have spent $12 on at Briscoes (a mother’s day card and wrapping paper) and whether my versace sunglasses were real! WTF!!?? They are but might I add they were a present, and were brought off trade me!
    they then told me my dentist quote was too dear and sent me to one in the slums that actually worked out more expensive by $150!
    After all of this crap it was finally approved, much to my relief. I suppose they do have systems in place to weed out the bullshitters but honestly, where do they draw the line???

  33. Hana says:

    I am a young single parent on the DPB, but I also study full time and will end up in a govt job. In the four years that i have been on the DPB I have not known about dental care, medical care or eye care grants, all of which have been needed at one time or another, yes I am guilty of not asking, but I have never heard these mentioned, and yet I know they are there. I have struggled to pay bills, but have not known that there are grants available to help me. I have paid bills and then lived on bread and noodles for the week because I havent known about food grants.
    There will always be those who go out of their way to recieve whatever they can for as little as possible, but there are those who really are in great need, and knowledge gives these people power in WINZ. Well done in getting this article out there, no one on a benefit really enjoys being there and for many you will have made life just a little easier. :)

  34. A "Bludger" says:

    How interesting that Nick has demanded that “Laura” provide evidence as to why she is only working part time and claiming DPB. I am on the DPB as my husband left me and our 2 kids on New Years Day this year, without warning or prior anything, to live with the woman he had been having an affair with. He expected us to live on no money, no savings, no food in the cupboards (we were due to go grocery shopping a couple of days after he left). I had been working up until a week before Christmas, and stopped at the joint agreement of my (now ex) hubby and myself, due to medical/illness issues. I was due to start studying from home towards a B.Comm this year, and my DPB and Training Incentive Allowance(s) have enabled me to persue this, while it is inadvisable medically for me to go out to work (I have immunity issues currently). My DPB provides income for me and my children to live on. It is not alot, $275 per week basic benefit + Family Support + Accommodation Supplement. A total of $472 per week. Paying of bills takes care of $350 pw, and groceries for my kids and myself takes a further $100 per week. Leaving me with $25 each week for me to clothe and shoe my children, pay for their medical costs, and any transport requirements (I don’t drive). My ex doesn’t contribute any more that he absolutely must (child support doesn’t come to me, it goes to the government to assist with my “upkeep” while I am on the benefit, and is compulsory) financially, and decided that he only wanted to have contact with the children once a fortnight for 5 hours. He has told me that when I do start work (after study) he is planning on going on the unemployment benefit, so that he only has to pay the minimum amount of child support ($18 pw). He decided that his girlfriend and her 2 kids are much more important that his own children, and thinks nothing of regularly spending a considerable amount of money on them, but won’t buy a pair of shoes ($20) or a pair of jeans ($14) for his own kids from The Warehouse. Being a parent on the DPB and trying and managing to support yourself and your children is hard enough. Getting flack from those who consider themselves better than you, simply because of a situation of circumstance, is horrendous. As my Mum would say, “there but for the grace of God goes you”.

  35. dave says:

    Hana, could you please leave a message for Dave at the Salient office with your phone number ph 463 6766

  36. CMR says:

    The scheme is designed for all of us who may be in genuine need.

    Nevertheless, there is no “them” to rip off! There is only an “us.”

    At various times of our lives we all either draw from the scheme or contribute to it through taxation. We are all an “us!”

  37. vicks says:

    being a student is hard work and financially draining, for those people who have other responsibilities such as kids or disAbilities which require long term care, it is sometimes not possible to work, but has it occured to some of you people that the reason some of us choose to be students is so we can better ourselves, get off the benefit and be providers for our children?
    winz are there to help, often they dont and you have to involve services such as beneficaries advocates but the reason for this is that too many people sit on there arses at home, collect the benefit and die having made nothing of themselves,
    personally i want to go somewhere and i say go anyone else who wants to make a difference in this world

  38. Observer says:

    Taking an observers point of view, I’ve had a student loan, struggled to find a job, with student allowances and dole, after getting a job I’ve paid taxes since, raised a family on single income without government assistance. So been there done that and dragged myself out of it. That said, I do advocate for a fair system to support those in need due to situation or circumstance to keep people in housing and give children in challenging situations the best possible opportunity for both a childhood and an educated future.

    It is interesting to see that the the premise about this article and a lot of the comments are about getting money out of the government. All of the commentary about the extras highlighted is just an advance of money, with a few exceptions, this has to be paid back.

    Has anyone thought maybe this attitude to money is part of the bigger picture? Some of you here and our future children, will struggle to scrape together enough cash to get a deposit for a house let along earn enough to pay the mortgage of the future. Just ask an economics student how it works…

    The premise of have it now pay for it later is making the later very expensive and allowing the multinationals offshore to get rich in the process. Surely an attitude of creative thought and some focus on how to get the most from our collective system (Government, NZ Businesses and Employees included) without ripping the system off in the process is better than I’ll have it now and won’t think about tomorrow.

    Keep in mind those students today who are relying/rorting on our less than perfect system will be the ones paying for their parents government pension and providing the taxes to pay for those cheating bludgers in the future, that is if they don’t bugger off off-shore to those pillaging multinationals….

  39. Brendon, Auckland Uni Student says:

    Hey guys, congrats on pissing off WINZ. The Herald’s article on you made my day. You’re gonna be all over Craccum next week.

  40. Sandra says:

    The main reason I’m leaving this country soon is because of people like you! And I wish I’ve never come here in the first place. To think that I have been paying taxes from day one, for the last 10 years, for the lazy bums like you! So, Australia, here we come!! At least there are less loopholes and more hope!
    PS. With three degrees to my name (the last one a doctorate) obtained without a student loan, I’m still doing a menial job here because I’m foreiger (with no kiwi experience), but at least I’m not ripping off the honest people who work in this country.

    Cheers!

  41. Sandra M. says:

    The main reason I’m leaving this country soon is because of people like you! And I wish I’ve never come here in the first place. To think that I have been paying taxes from day one, for the last 10 years, for the lazy bums like you! So, Australia, here we come!! At least there are less loopholes and more hope!
    PS. With three degrees to my name (the last one a doctorate) obtained without a student loan, I’m still doing a menial job here because I’m foreiger (with no kiwi experience), but at least I’m not ripping off the honest people who work in this country.

    Cheers!

  42. Rehman says:

    The peace I have since I got my full time job was never when I was on benefit, I am enjoying my job, I worked as labour when it was impossible for me to get a job in 90′s. Then I worked in the night shifts and jobs security guards, night porters and taxi driver. I was trying very hard and today after the 9 yeras efforts I own a company and realy enjoying my job, I do not even wanna think about going back on benefit, I may still be qualified for some benefits but I rather spend that time at my work.

    I think working full time is stress free and If some one is going to dhole office every day thats a very stressfull life why we choose stresss. When we can l.ive stress free. Those days are gone when It was immpossible to get a job now there are plenty of jobs waiting hope the students will enjoy it.

    I think who should go on benifit? If some one is sick, pregnant,disable,child,or have child single mothers,retired or in a emergency. Not some one who say I can not find a job and never try for one.

  43. John says:

    A good thought provoking article that will have politicians champing at the bit to take the moral high ground. One aspect not covered is that not all students have access to the services of WINZ, and hundreds of students have real financial struggles, but get no support because of their parent’s income. It is just assumed that working families can meet the all the costs of sending their kids to university. As the father of a first year Vic Uni Student we have had to send out son off to Uni with no financial support, to struggle on a daily basis. We are unable to support him financially and he cannot access any additional support because of our perceived income. With two other children to raise, both parents working we can’t even afford to buy a house, never mind pay for university and living costs for him. I guess we do our bit by paying taxes which allow other peoples kids to attend Uni and get the additional support they need. No great incentive for anyone to get off welfare is there?

  44. Radius says:

    well, this story is very interesting, I admit, I have used some of these similar systems before, (years ago- when i had nothing) but one day you also as an individual may wake up and think, what am i really doing with my life? living off the govt anyway i can, what a great example am i setting for myself, my whanau or families. yes i still see WINZ or the Govt.still havnt really plugged the loopholes,if they do, others are created by some other educated individual,-pity its possibly for the wrong reasons, as a director now of my own company, I pay shitloads in taxes but at the end of the day, its all about survival in this day and age and if the govt know of these loopholes and yet still let people still get away with them, then i not surprised why anyone wouldnt use em, very interesting article,

  45. michele says:

    Thanks 4 the great info. Dave. Not everyone needs a helping-hand, and not everyone needs to take your advice – I’m certainly taking much of what you have said on board for family and friends still trying to navigate their way through the mine-field of WINZ…most are awaiting interviews/pregnancy/etc…..as they are clearly not being told their entitlements and obviously – WINZ case managers are certainly not going to encourage you to know any better if you don’t know any of this first……as 4 the other tossers in here who think its a bloody travesty to help out other’s? Suck it up…Cheers Dave!

  46. Adam says:

    Being on the DPB or any other benefit is a choice? Well, it doesn’t take an Einstein to figure out that it’s best to take the benefit, if the only alternative, for example, is homelessness!

    Seann: you’re right. NZ has become a place where you’re either used or you’re one of the users. There’s not a lot of middle ground anymore, which of course is very unfortunate for those of us who don’t want to use people and don’t want to be used ourselves.

    There is not much of an incentive to be a student. It’s financially easier to be an unemployment beneficiary than it is to be a student, which is ridiculous. So what happens if you’re one of many that doesn’t have parents or other relatives there to pay for the costs of the course you want to study in order to better yourself? You can beome an unemployment beneficiary, where you get money without having to pay it back, or you can try to survive as a student, where you get a student allowance but you also have to get a student loan for thousands of dollars. That really sucks. I’d like it if the Government encouraged people to work and study. Those of us from less wealthy families would jump at the chance to study or work, but if we can’t find work, then all that’s available for us without going into debt is the dole.

  47. Jean-Michel says:

    Great discussion. Real intense content.

  48. dave says:

    Actually Adam its much better being on a student allowance without a student loan than on a benefit – all you need to do is 6 courses, can earn $150 per week without your benefit abated and you can access subsidies. If your partner is not working full time he/she can earn up to $360 a week if you are not working at all without the student allowance being abated. However, if you are means tested through your parents income its a lot more difficult.

    Too many students get a student loan for living costs and rack up huge debts instead of biting the bullet. Living off the student allowance and accessing subsidies from Studylink and working part time is much more sensible if you are able to budget.

  49. cam slikas says:

    Good on ya, I work full time and always have, good that someone has actually put down on paper what we all new all along. You have really shot yourself in the foot now tho, as obviously the government will now work out these loopholes. Hopefully the end of seeing students partying mid week and wearing the newest clothes listning to their ipod. Hundreds of thousands of dollars for the to earn a stupid art degree,

  50. Janey says:

    I cant believe how many free loading, dishonest, dipshits support this piece of shit article. If your intention was to piss of Case Managers, well done! But you have also pissed off a lot of harding working, HONEST tax-payers! Not only have you got the attention of Case Managers, you’ve most probably got the attention of the Benefit Fraud Squad who will most probably investigate every single student ‘grants’ etc ….. thanks a lot you stupid-arse, shit for brains, dick head!!

  51. Awryly says:

    (quote)
    “Ministry of Social Development chief media advisor Bronwyn Saunders said Winz would not speak to NZPA about the article but issued a short statement:

    “It is disappointing the Salient reporter has deliberately mislead readers about Work and Income assistance.

    “Anyone who deliberately deprives themselves of income or manipulates their circumstances to be eligible for assistance is committing fraud,” the statement said.

    She declined to say whether the information in the article was illegal or wrong.
    (end quote)

    In my experience, as a senior ex-MSD staffer who knows WINZ well – too well, this is a typical MSD response. They can’t point to anything illegal (and there isn’t) but somehow think it’s unethical to operate a system to your own advantage. They forget that an entire sector of the financial advice industry is based on figuring how to operate tax laws – within the law – to suit taxpayers rather than the IRD.

    Make no mistake: WINZ also operates their various systems to its advantage whenever it suits it or it thinks it can get away with it.

    But nice hypocrisy, Bronwyn. Well done.

  52. jason gunn says:

    poo

  53. georgie says:

    Due to familal circumstances which I’d rather not disclose, WINZ is pissed off with the article because it is SO TRUE, and they reckon it was an inside job, because the details are too accurate to have been sourced from an ex beneficiary. None of its illegal, but its stuff they don’t really want to be public knowledge cos they then have to actually do it. And to all those people that moan bout using taxpayers money? Move to Washington DC and look at all the bums who are too poor to live anywhere. Then come back to NZ and realise that by paying your taxes, you’re helping to keep our streets free of bums, (except the ones who like living there)

  54. McMann says:

    Good insite to entitlements but its all good while you’re a student and live in a false reality where everyday life has no consequences. Unfortunately all students leave varsity and usually get a real job and start contributing and in turn may even get pissed off by people getting their full ‘entitlement’ from WINZ.
    Paying of 20 to 30k of a student loan when its your own hard earned money certainly gives a slightly different perspective to things. Its even better when you go offshore to get real wages and get charged outlandish interest rates on said student loans to help subsidise benificiaries we were all so keen to be when times where different….
    Swings and roundabouts…

  55. kimmy says:

    i live on the invalids benifit not by chioce, i suffer from severe R A (arithritis) i hav one child, after i pay my rent i hav 200 dollars to pay food,power,phone ,meds, school fees, cloths we get given cause wins dont help me much at all, even with a poor card my doc bills are still 35 bucks , i dont have a car and me and my child go without alot as do students i cant blame people for taking what they can from the winz story and running, the goverment make me and alot of people live on nothing and beg for everything i get, i can come from winz feeling that i should top myself because im one of the undeserving, my child an i live on 20 grand a year but on the news last week they said it costs 92 grand a yr for one prisoner , get that… life is not great for all on a benifit someones got to look afta the kids the men dont they walk an start new lives , i wish i could work i did rite up until i got ill , those were the days a

  56. A. Non says:

    The information in that article is mostly correct, but whoever decided that headline was the one to go with needs a quick smack upside the head with the clue stick.

    One, as someone else pointed out, it’s Work and Income, not “WINZ”. They only changed the name how many years ago?

    Two, none of that is ripping off the system. It’s all legal entitlements, which you would receive if you meet the qualifications. Knowing what to ask for is not a “rip off”. That’s just shoddy and journalism.

  57. Dave says:

    Good article. I can see why the spin and tone of it has p*ssed off a few people, but the guts of the info you’ve given is accurate.
    I worked for WINZ in its earlier incarnation of NZISS for some years. Some things haven’t radically changed since then: beyond the basic benefit and common top-ups its mostly a case of “don’t ask – don’t get”. Hana’s situation is a common one. This is where student welfare groups & organizations like the People’s Centres are necessary – they can let you know what things you might be eligible for beyond the basics and how to go about getting them.

  58. Shaun says:

    Yes, the title would have given them an excuse to make a big song and dance over nothing. It is a silly title – but it is largely serious factual content. If its an attempt at sarcasm or satire – then fine – but remember, we’re dealing with very narrow-minded and obedient individuals at WINZ and the MSD. They lack the intellectual, creative and complex thinking ability so the title would have been enough for them to exaggerate. This habit of bureaucrats jumping the gun seems to have gotten worse since Labour became government.

  59. Sahun says:

    The title would have given them an excuse to make a big song and dance over nothing. It is a silly title – but it is largely serious factual content. If its an attempt at sarcasm or satire – then fine – but remember, we’re dealing with very narrow-minded and obedient individuals at WINZ and the MSD. They lack the intellectual, creative and complex thinking ability so the title would have been enough for them to exaggerate. This habit of bureaucrats jumping the gun seems to have gotten worse since Labour became government.

  60. Adam says:

    It all depends on the case manager, though, doesn’t it? One may let you have dental work to be paid by W&I; another may not. You may be legally allowed to have the dental work and have the Government pay for it for you but it can take a hell of a long time if you have a slack or mean or useless case manager.

  61. Nick Archer says:

    Good point Adam, that’s why the Peoples Centre exists, you are entitled to the things mentioned in the artcile by LAW (regardless what some of the reactionaries say on some the contents above e.g. calling people bludgers), and if the case manager refuses these entitlements even when you are jumping through the hoops they are not doing there job fairly.

    WINZ have over reacted big time about this whole article, nothing illegal about the article, WINZ just don’t like being pointed out for not giving people their full entitlement (because just like the cops with their speeding tickets quota, they get rewarded for giving as little money out as possible).

    As for those comments like:

    “This is not ripping off WINZ – This is ripping off the tax payers.” – Tracey

    NO ITS NOT! Because the government made these entitlements LAW/POLICY

    “i had a job as soon as i finished training. i have no sympathy for students moaning about money. there are other ways to live without ripping of the NZ tax payer!” – Hahn

    THATS THE POINT of the article if you don’t have a job you STILL need clothes for an interview that’s what the clothing allowance is intended for! Not every student has a job lined up already!

    “get a job and stop spending my tax money!” – barry

    WHAT DO YOU THINK STUDENTS ARE DOING BARRY??? They are getting qualifications so they can get a job and a lot of them have to BORROW a pittance ($150 per week) just to live through the Govt Loan shark system…

    THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE ARTICLE! It is LEGAL and rightly so sticks it to Work and Income for being stingey bureaucrats…

    There is nothing wrong with good debate about welfare in general (e.g. should we have it or not) but personal attacks and calling people bludgers without saying anything constructive is a waste of time.

  62. Jess says:

    Shaun: Nice to see someone else knows of these websites as well. They can be very handy to find out what you are ENTITLED to whilst on a benefit/studying. Interesting points on both asides of the coin.

    And the electricity comment is correct, it has to be a disconnection notice to receive a loan from W&I to pay the bill, please note the loan word. They do make you pay it back.

    Food Grant ‘limits’ Single person $250 per year – DPB whilst studying with 2 children $450 per year, Single with 3 children $550 per year. (Not sure on couple) T

    raining Incentive Allowance is a maximum of around $3,600 per course/12 months. So sometimes there will be having to get TIA and also get a student loan to cover excess fees/costs.
    TIA can also cover childcare costs whilst studying. Last point:

    If there are 3 – 4 students in 1 flat and all going in for food grants every other week, W&I will query about it and you have to have receipts to show where you’re money has gone and have an ‘unexpected, unforseen urgent need’ crop up. (Not the campus pub or car insurance or credit card payment.

    Here’s an idea, maybe get someone to work on campus with Studylink/W&I advocacy help….

  63. dave says:

    Paul wrote” Why should someone who gets pregnant, goes to prison, or simply doesnt work and lives on a benefit for long enough get their student fees paid for out of a training allowance, while someone who has never depended on a benefit has to pay for thier own?”

    Exactly. You`ll have to ask your MP that one. Work and Income have no say in the matter.

  64. Seann says:

    Paul wrote” Why should someone who gets pregnant, goes to prison, or simply doesnt work and lives on a benefit for long enough get their student fees paid for out of a training allowance, while someone who has never depended on a benefit has to pay for thier own?”

    Well, all kinds of pregnant women get extra help, all sorts of people go to prison, all sorts of people (including rich ones) don’t work. So none of that is relevant. However, people who have never depended on a benefit or some sort of income support at all are often better off than those who do. In an egalitarian, democratic country, those who struggle financially are given extra help. SImple.

  65. Seann says:

    ADAM wrote: It all depends on the case manager, though, doesn’t it? One may let you have dental work to be paid by W&I; another may not. You may be legally allowed to have the dental work and have the Government pay for it for you but it can take a hell of a long time if you have a slack or mean or useless case manager.

    One way around this and any other instant refusal is to ask “Can I have a reason in writing now?” The case manager probably won’t want to do that. But it is important to record everything said — try recording with a dictaphone (the CM can ask you not to, so just say – “Fine, but this is going to take time…then get a pen and paper out – they can’t prevent that — or take a friend who can be your scribe…). Another legitimate strategy is to state: “This is an emergency situation, please hold an administrative review of decision immediately”. The case manager MUST have the refusal reviewed by his/manager straight away. If this doesn’t work, request a Review of Decision and write a letter of complaint, start with the Service Manager of the branch. Any old piece of paper is fine. There is a form though. When writing, one only needs to state: “Please review the decision” and sign and date it with your WINZ client number. No need to go into the complexities etc. Never give WINZ information they don’t need to have – less is better. As others have said here – see the Wellington People’s Centre at Lukes Lane – the advocates are trained in understanding legislation – and policy – but they focus on law first.

  66. Steve Nicoll says:

    Do you have stories about Work and Income? Have they treated you unfairly? Salient is interested in speaking with you. Please call 04 463 6767, or 04 463 6766.

    Steve Nicoll

  67. Jazz says:

    Contact a benefit advocate if you are a student or a single mother, etc. I was struggling and they helped me out. It is not ripping off winz. Beneficiaries get taxed too fyi. You have to give winz your IRD number for that reason. For anyone putting down those on a benefit, consider this-you don’t know WHY they are on a benefit. You don’t know their life story so please don’t judge. Myself and many people I have known on a benefit, don’t like being on one. We hate it. My mother was on DPB for years. Solo parent and later an adult student studying a BA in Pyschology.
    I was made redundant and had trouble getting a job plus I had have chronic fatigue. I study via correspondance and a free computer course. I occassionally get contract work. Extra/acting. Not a dole bludger!!!!!!!!. I used to work full time too. Just standing up for people like me. This is a good article mainly aimed at ex fulltime students. They have big enough loans to deal with so they deserve more help. My flatmate for example, studied at a drama school for three years full time $33,000!!!!!!!!. She doesn’t really get much work and is on PACE a benefit through Creative NZ. Winz never suggested any extra supplements to her. She is living off $160 a wk!!. That’s shocking!. Now she is looking for ANY job just to have money and to start paying off her mammoth loan. She can’t just wait for work. Stupid erratic film industry. You see my point?. Cheers

  68. Jessi says:

    Exactly, those people who are complaining about students getting an extra benefit or two here and there should try living off $150 a week, having over 30 hours of uni a week, studying for at least 3 hours a night on top of that, and struggling to fit in a couple of hours work here and there to give a little bit extra to the budget.

  69. devildjg says:

    I thought this article was irresponsible – and there is nothing much in the article that isnt already on the Work and Income website. Maybe posting a link would have been more useful?

    I spent 4 years as a Case Manager – and it was the most rewarding job Ive ever had. Generally speaking, you often meet people who are at their lowest – people who have recently been unemployed for the first time after working for 40+ years, people trying to escape abusive partners, people with short life expectancies etc… So forgive me if I dont have the same amount of empathy for a student who has no money because they went out clubbing… The secret to enjoying my job was not to buy into the sterotypes as depicted in this article… Getting people into work, and seeing them months later, happier, healthier and with a bit more pride in theirselves.

    Most Case Managers and Service Managers do try to make a difference, and do try to provide their clients with the full and correct entitlements – they also try to help their clients towards work/training. There were often staff working long after the doors closed, without overtime. But does this ever get published??? No… I (and some of my colleagues) would also come in on Saturdays (again, often unpaid), but did that ever get published??? No…

    And its not just about collecting a “dole” payment, its about providing a bit more financial freedom and better futures to New Zealanders.

    There will always be stories of bad service – whether its Work and Income, IRD, McDonalds, the Dairy down the road…. and even *shock horror* benefit advocates…

    And as for this article sending shivers up the spine of politians and senior MSD officials – I dont think so. They would be more concerned with the person on their desk than what some sensationalised article in a student newspaper. If it didnt make it into the Herald, it probably wouldnt even be on the radar. And for every article like this, there will be articles (especially in small town papers) about Work and Income helping people in genuine need.

  70. seann says:

    to devildjg:

    WINZ doesn’t respect its workers anyway, still has bad pay and conditions after all this time… In some of my experiences – some case managers do a lot more than they are paid to do – with good intentions etc. And that’s fine, but in a way that’s why its such a disorganised and messy system – no distinction is made between policy, legislation, practice via the personal opinion of case managers. Using discretion, being reasonable and fair-minded etc is proper and should be allowed but unfortunately often the personal prejudices of the case manager takes over.

    GET RID OF WELFARE to begin with and provide a livible supplement [for no reason other than to help out with $$$ – leave all the political underhandedness from both sides out of it) for everyone irrespective of age and/or income. Make it entirely automated – It will save millions for the country. NO BUREAUCRATS – YAAAY!

  71. seann says:

    PS.

    I don’t want the State and its dogs poking their noses into OUR/MY business. Just give us the state handout and f-off!!!!

    NO ACCOUNTABILITY REQUIRED. NO NEED – A CIVILISED SOCIETY WILL DO THE ABOVE IN RECOGNITION OF THE ECONOMIC INEQUALITIES THAT EXIST & WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO UNTIL PEOPLE WAKE UP

  72. bob says:

    hey devil djg
    If you thought your job as a case manager was so hot and ” the most rewarding job youve ever had” – why aren’t you still there? Wjy did you leave?

  73. Susan says:

    Excellent article Dave. Well done. Susan ( the neo one)

  74. James says:

    A comment to Evee who wrote below:

    Evee
    July 30th, 2007 at 10:57 am

    Thanks for perpetuating the stereotype of a lazy and unmotivated dole bludging student you fuckwit. Not all of us choose to live this way.

    You are the fuckwit, yes you Evee. You obviously are better off then the rest of us and know nothing about the people who are looking for jobs and how easy it is to become depressed and eventually commit sucide.

    Every bit of cash helps feed families…

    You are the one that stereotypes people and for that you suck, try getting the facts before you shoot your fuckn mouth off.
    As for your comment: “Not all of us choose to live this way.” I know why you dont, because you have money or your parents do, “ching ching”

    So carry on with your life, “most likely with your eyes closed”, I would personally make them permanantly closed.

    This is not a rip off, its the system, yes the system you, your parents and so on have created for us to live in, what a mess you have made

    And dont think that all our taxes are paying for this because theyre not, most taxes are used for paying our interest on our countries loan from the world bank, and the interest we pay a week is: $3.5million a week, yes only interest.

    So thanks alot Sapient for the help

    Regards Jpurcell666

  75. hunny says:

    umm this very excellent information for those who really need this support..BUT..there are a.s.s.h.o.l.e.s out there that use this system which is ‘ripping it off’ whether it be WINZ or the taxpayers..i know of people who would prefer to sit on their backsides playing PS2 all day waiting for thursday for the benefit and guess what??? they buy cigarettes, drugs and alcohol..these are the ones who force their partners to go on DPB so they can have their $$$$ to themselves, they have no regard for their family!!!

  76. Evee says:

    James:

    ‘You are the fuckwit, yes you Evee. You obviously are better off then the rest of us and know nothing about the people who are looking for jobs and how easy it is to become depressed and eventually commit sucide.’

    Dude, I just got a new job this afternoon. Not that I think that shoots your argument down, but I thought I’d let you know that.

    What the hell is wrong with earning money?

    The dole exists to support people who can’t find work. Most of the comments I’ve read from WINZ employees about people coming off work for the first time in years have touched me. But I don’t sympathise with the idea of presenting this information directly to students, because that can easily lead people to think that students are looking for ways to exploit the dole, instead of using their degrees to seek active employment.

    ‘I know why you dont, because you have money or your parents do, “ching ching”’

    My finances are none of your business. Maybe you should concentrate on your own situation before making assumptions about people you’ve never met.

    As for your death threats, just fuck off. Nobody’s afraid of you.

    And don’t ever fucking tell me not to shoot my mouth off you little shit.

  77. Jake Micallef says:

    and if all this doesnt work then just get off your ass and get a job and pay your own way like everyone else has to. the benefit is supposed to help people as a last resort or in between jobs ya lazy pricks

  78. melua says:

    How to get rid of welfare – bring on the drug testing! lol..

  79. Phillip says:

    Hi Steve,
    I think you’ve missed all the hating on this page.
    Please delete it forthwith in accordance with your censorship policies.
    Thanks,
    Phillip

  80. devildjg says:

    Main motivation for leaving: Had to coz my current girlfriend was working there. She was also in a senior-ish position in our office and I didnt want to put her in a compromised position. So I went for another job in head office and got it.

    It was also my first real job – so I didnt really have anything to compare it to in terms of the satisfaction I was getting etc.

    Dont get me wrong – there were bad times when I wanted to quit etc… But the old cliche is true – “you get out what you put in”…

    In my experience, Work and Income DOES respect it workers… I always got huge support and encouragement from my bosses… Sure, the pay isnt the greatest – but I needed to start somewhere…

    The other thing to keep in mind is that Work and Income is a massive organisation – so cultural change takes forever… In the 4 years I was there, the amount of change was unbelievable – and most of the changes were around supporting better customer service.

  81. Rob says:

    In the year 2002 I earned $50k gross. Once I had deduced all money of no substance to me (all taxes, registrations, levies, permissions, licenses and interest etc) I was left with $11,500. Then, after I had paid for electricity, phone, medical, basic clothes and food for a family of three – I was left with $288. This was my true discretionary income… With this I was supposed to maintain the emotional, psycological and physical well-being of three people. The GST I paid for this year equaled 18 weeks of my food budget and the GST I paid on the food alone was 3 weeks of my food budget. $288 equals about 11 cents per hour. At the age of 15 I spent 12 months in Waikeria Borstal – here I was paid 12 cents per hour. I am of the opinion that this government and all before and all after do not want us to succeed in life; or to be happy in our endeavours… only that we would offer our bodies up as a continued sacrifice for the extraction of money for the payment of interested on a national debt to which repayment of principle is never factored… ie, tax demands just keep going up and up and up…

  82. marlene says:

    Hi im a single parent with a 17mth old and a 3 yr old , yes my choice, so im on the dpb also. I would love to go to work and have some real money in my pocket and have a brake from being a mum 24/7 !!But the reason i CHOOSE to be on the dpb is so i can spend time grown up my children to the best i can, i also dont have alot of support were my kids are concerned for me to go back to work and as much as there is help with winz paying for childcare , there is no way im leaving my kids with childcare minders in this day n age just so i can work fulltime and have someone else bring up my kids . no thanks I make do with dpb . as my kids get older and go to school yyyep il be getting work i really miss it ,but for now il be taking advantage of winz when i need it . a mothers job is 24/7 not 8hrs a day yet we get fuk all for it . lifes what you make of it aye no ones perfect . iv payed a shit load of taxes in my years working , and now thanks to winz i can take time out to be a mum ,is that so bad ????

  83. Phillip says:

    Yeah, that’s awesome – you know what? I wish my parents could’ve done the same. Unfortunately for them, they had to work to pay your benefit. I’m not bitter. I’m glad you enjoying bludging.

  84. Sophie says:

    Well Philip, your parents did the right thing then eh? Instead of raising their son to be a fair & discerning member of society who prefers not to bag on single mothers to extend his manhood, they decided to pay taxes for dole bludgers and other such low lives out there. Thanks for showing everyone what a benefit to society your parents have been!

  85. Rob says:

    In any other country this would not arise. Hence why so many “students” come to NZ and stay on, while earning external income offshore via the extended family. What a holiday camp for immigrants.

  86. Moha says:

    Wow thanks dude you just gave a idea to a open a center for teaching afghan and Somalis immigrants to get more money form WINZ.
    $$$

  87. Rob Gillard says:

    I have been on an Invalid’s benefit for 10 years. Before anybody calls me a bludger I had a motor ACCIDENT which left me with a “permanent and serious disability.” After ACC weaseled out of their responsibilities I was left in the hands of WINCE (oops,sorry, WINZ) As a single guy I have been left on a absolute pittance. Even with all the additions and extra allowances and having been left a freehold flat by my dear old Mum (RIP) I can still only just cope. My budget does not include fripperies such as clothes, holidays, WoF and registration, Christmas presents for the great nieces, booze, going out with my mates to a restaurant or a show etc etc. Thank God my sense of humour is intact!! However I was in the work force for 26 years and paid my taxes. The benefit is my due and I am not ashamed to collect every damn penny I can squeeze. If someone uses WINZ for a helping hand to get started or to support them if good times go bad then that’s fine by me.

  88. Sylvie says:

    Sum people on here need to get real and realise that some people arent on a benefit to bludge but to survive. My (ex) partner walked out on me only a few wks after we found out i was pregnant so i knew from the outset i would be a single mother. However i kept my very physical job as a farmer up until the week before my son was born, then we lived off my holiday pay for the next four weeks. My son was in hospital for his first month and was in and out of hospital for a few months after that. Needless to say, going bak to work wasnt an option for me at that time, and i had ZERO support from his father so i had to rely on a benefit to get us thru.
    My point is that for sum, turning to Work and Income is a matter of necessity rather then one of laziness. So maybe think twice before labelling beneficiaries as bludgers!

  89. Dora says:

    I am an older person. 6 weeks ago WINZ decided they had lost my Disability Form and have stopped my Disability payment. I have been over to the Naenae Office 6 times and each time have been told it is being dealt with, but still nothing has happened. Could anyone please advise to whom do I now turn to. Thanks.

  90. George says:

    OMG! The person whom wrote this was a real dreamer! I am a case manager, and I could tell you a few things! Firstly about full and correct entitlements!! We are not only encouraged 2 look at clients full and correct entitlements, including TAS, SNG’s and make sure they are on their correct benefits, we are also pretty much graded on what service we give our clients!! A case manager whom doesnt give full and correct entitlements, has clients come in more often for reactive appointments-where they cant manage on their budgets, rather than proactive appointments, where we help clients into work, courses etc-anything to better themselves!! A case manager whom doesnt do this-finds themselves very busy and overloaded with client demands, or with other case maangers demands-as that other case manager is overloaded so others have to pick up their work too! The hardest thing is trying to educate someone on how to manage their money to the best they can, and not putting judgement in the way. As a case manager, i find myself very fair, honest, informative and reasonably proactive. Someone that is working-can be alot better off than someone on a benefit! you can possibly be entitled to working for families-for your accomodation supplement, TAS, disability allowance, childcare subsidy etc, then IRD can pay Family Tax credit, In work tax credit, Child support (which you dont normally get while on a benefit unless its a private agreement-which is then charged against your benefit) etc. WINZ is actually there to help those people whom need a bit of help-whether its financial, searching for work, etc. Its just a pity that there are those out there whom use it, defraud the department and ruin it for others.
    There is some really good information in your article, unfortunatly a bit of it is misleading and quite judgemental.
    If you are on a benefit, ask your case manager what else you may be entitled to, ring the call center and ask for a “How we can help you” brochure etc. You will find they are usually more than willing to help. Also-I noted the Peoples center? was mentioned in this article? That is an excellent resource. They keep up to date with alot of information relevant to clients, and sometimes make it easier for a client to come in with them, as it can be quite stressful coming into WINZ for some people.
    To the person whom wrote this, go in and get some phamplets, update your information and be a little less critical and a bit more positive in what you are saying. Yes there is alot you could be entitled to, doenst hurt to enquire does it??

    CM

  91. Dora says:

    Dear George, in a way your article has given me some information, but I have asked to see the Manager and Assistant Manager and have been told “they do not deal with complaints”. so had to leave them a written letter two weeks ago. Still haven’t heard anything. please what is my next move??? Go to Head Office in Wellington????

  92. Elaina says:

    U R rite, not all people are dishonest but I did cheat da system. I lived in George Street, Stokes Valley and bought a house with the help of my parents. In the last 2 – 3 years have worked under the table whilst receiving the DPB. My family knew of my situation. Im sorry but now I am moving to the Gold Coast to live and work with mum and dad.

  93. Cushla says:

    Well your an idiot aren’t you!! For some of us who did attend Uni and now work for a living it sickens me that my hard earned tax goes to bludgers as much as it already does without scum like yourself encouraging more lazy shits to get anything and everything they can. Encourage people to get a job and look after themselves rather than to live off others who do have a life!!

  94. Cushla says:

    Well your an idiot aren’t you!! For some of us who did attend Uni and now work for a living it sickens me that my hard earned tax goes to bludgers as much as it already does without scum like yourself encouraging more lazy shits to get anything and everything they can. Encourage people to get a job and look after themselves rather than to live off others who do have a life!!

  95. Larissa says:

    To be honest, I actually liked the article…not the topic so to speak…but I appreciated having a good read up on things I didn’t know existed – and all available to the public.

    Yes the article has caused an uproar. Some things I think were misinterpreted. It was an individual yet informative outlook on a way of survival for alot of NZers out there. Alot of comments both negative and positive being thrown around…so I think it’s only fair that since I’m posting a comment, I might as well have my say.

    I have nothing against people who are on benefits. I pay taxes just like alot of people out there…and it only pisses me off when I hear of people claiming DPB while their partner who lives with them earns upto $1000 per week, and they’re basically getting around $1100 in the hand. That’s just greedy and unfair. And those people deserve to be caught out. But some people do it to survive. Like when your partner gets $68 dollars per week on student allowance and you have two small children. What are you supposed to do?

    I would probably say that for the family trying to better their situation by getting educated to get employed and off the benefit – I don’t mind. For them, it’s survival.

    But to the family who can’t be bothered living off your partners income because cutting off that extra boost – means no new luxuries this week. Stop being greedy and stop ripping off the system!

  96. dave says:

    Elaina, you should be ashamed of yourself.

    Dora – ring the peoples centre and talk to them. Or e-mail me at dave@salient.org.nz

    George, you dreamer – I wrote the article. What information do I need to be updated on. Do tell. How many people have you put into work this week?

  97. I think some people are missing the point. This article isn’t about how to rip off the government/taxpayers. It’s informing you of benefits you’re legally entitled too. Any issues should probably be sent to the government, rather than posted on the Salient website (we don’t really give a shit, mans).

  98. Evee says:

    Then why is it called ‘How to Rip Off WINZ’?

  99. Tristan says:

    Because sensationalist headlines attract readers, and thus get info out better to those that need it better than moderate headlines ever could.

  100. Evee says:

    That’s weak. The headline is an inaccurate summary of the article and enforces negative representations of students.

  101. dave says:

    No its not. Yes it is. No it doesnt.

  102. Evee says:

    Are you the author? Did you think up the title yourself or did somebody do that for you?

  103. dave says:

    evee, if you understood anything about journalism you would know that writers do not sub or title their own stories. So, yes, I had no control over that title, m’kay.. I found out the same way you did.

  104. Evee says:

    it’s a bad title

  105. Douglas says:

    tuning in the old internet

    dialing up salient fm

    listening to a discussion about an article that was published 3 months ago

    good quality radio

  106. Evee says:

    eat a drug

  107. Tristan says:

    “That’s weak”

    Hey, if it’s good enough for NW, it’s good enough for us…

  108. Yeah man. No one complained about the story I called ‘Win a pony!’ that was about some boring tertiary funding or something. And that was way inaccurate. There was NOTHING about ponies in that story.

  109. evee says:

    ..thats because you left off the z in WIn.

  110. Evee says:

    ^^^^^^^^^
    faker

    poor titling = poor magazine

  111. Dougal says:

    beating a dead horse here

    new editor, and hopefully a new direction for salient (no titles left behind…)

  112. Evee says:

    Salient is rubbish and poor quality in the year 1956. I wipe my toes with it/ Steve Nicoll is a bad editor. A drunken bum could do a better job than steve nicoll. Let us reflect – Most faults and problems can be attributed to steve nicoll’s terrible lack of professionalism in the year 1825

  113. tristan says:

    I think I finally understand Evee. I thought she was mad but now realise she is a time travelling genius….

  114. Michael Oliver says:

    Evee is a Tralfamadorian

  115. Evee says:

    Thanks, but I don’t watch Transformers.

  116. Michael Oliver says:

    Evee’s tenure on Salient.org.nz summed up in one post.

  117. Michael Ontkean says:

    MAKE WAY FOR THE NEW GENERATION!

  118. Michael Oliver says:

    scott timmins kills steve irwin what a spiggin hufter

  119. Michael Ontkean says:

    ISP loll let me just chec my gmail accnt

  120. Dougal says:

    twin peaks was a good show, loved your work there michael ontkean

  121. Michael Ontkean says:

    Please … mine was but a small part to play. I am an attendant lord to the likes of the inimitable Kyle McLachlan

  122. Dougal says:

    don’t beat yourself up you’re a good actor and a good friend :)

  123. Arun James Dahya says:

    Recently I was laid off from work, and then signed up for the dole, grudgingly. I searched hard for work, at one point applying for 48 jobs in one day. I managed to get an interview in Hamilton (I am based in Wanganui), which WINZ paid for, however they told me they expected me to travel there, attend the interview, and travel directly back. At the interview, which was on a Friday, I was told to report back to the company on Monday to sign papers, and that I had pretty much got the job. Managed to find a way back to Hamilton on Tuesday (at my expense, because WINZ told us they would help us make up the rent money I had to use to get there)signed the papers, and was told I would be working for them soon, pending my security clearance. Meanwhile in Wanganui, our notice had been put in, with the final inspection date looming up at us. Our car is stuffed, sitting in the garage waiting for a part. My wife has been into WINZ several times where they told her they would pay for the part. Now, just today, two days before our final inspection date, Rachael Burroughs of Work and Income Wanganui has refused to make back up the two weeks worth of rent promised to us, refused to pay for the car repairs promised to us, and to top it off when we explained that we now have nowhere to stay in Wanganui, that’s me and my pregnant wife and two small children, all she had to say was (and I quote) : “That’s not Work and Income’s problem”. So now, if I pack it in with the job, they cut my benefit. If I don’t I have no idea when the work will start, or how I am going to get back to Hamilton, let alone where my family will stay.

    I’ll be sure to post back on here later, in case anybody would like to know how we end up getting by!

  124. lil says:

    This is the first time I have visited this site. Very interesting reading. I work with people who are in the benefit system through no fault of their own, most of them would prefer to have paid work. We have a falling rate of skilled persons of all ages in this country, mainly because of the exodus to countries that offer more of everything. The student loan scheme has resulted in huge personal debt for many people who wanted to improve their employment chances. The benefit system, though it is intended to be a support mechanism, and not a permanent way of life, is seriously flawed and poorly implemented, often by staff who either dont know, dont care or are just not interested in the clients situation. Some are even openly racial, biased against disabled and elderly. The most vulnerable. We, as a nation, are not advised of any legislative changes looming, not are these changes explained in advance, clearly, so people know what to expect. There will always be those who
    rip off a system, their actions end up penalising the innocent and vulnerable. We, the
    average New Zealander, pay, by way of taxes etc. for all sorts of things, Politicians
    Salaries, their Perks, refurbishing WINZ and Parliament Offices, replacement vehicles, you name it, it is probably covered. The financial management of New Zealanders Money in Government Coffers is deplorably wasteful and misused. There is no real accountability. Seldom when something financial is taken away from the people, it is not replaced, costs increase without consideration for covering that.
    For example, petrol, in my case I have gone from using $20.00 per week to using $60.00 plus, and I use my car less. A vehicle is vital for many, there may not be public transport available, (person may have a disability that precludes them uisng it)
    a person may need top get to and from work and public transport is not viable. Someone may be looking for work< ( as with a phone) a vehicle is a vital piece of equipment today. No-one gets extra assistance to cover the rising cost of petrol, this must surely affect most households. The inflation?????!!!!! adjust cost of living increase the beneficiaries, and ACC recipients, and wage and salary earners should get, does not cover, nor keep pace with, the speed with which living costs are rising. It has not done so fopr some years.
    New Zealanders need to be looking at what they are losing, and start asking why?
    Then start asking for a leadership in government that will be seen to address these ills.

  125. Sonia says:

    An informative article, albeit one sided. I think as a nation we are very fortunate. In most countries they do not have financial assistance, help with job placements or training, all of the services WINZ provides for free. I was a student once and was very grateful for the assistance. I was a solo mother on the DPB once and again was very grateful for the assistance. I now work damn hard for my money and do not begrudge anyone who uses the services that WINZ offers with the right intentions. Never judge someone until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes, and yes it does come down to choices but who is to say you won’t be unfortunately placed in the situation where you need financial assistance from WINZ. I think your article has been very informative and helpful to those that may need extra help, which lateley seems to be most of NZ.

  126. Sira says:

    My story might even shed some light on this. I’m on invalids for sickness that is no fault of my own and in some ways could even be blamed on the government for situations I were in and they were aware of yet did nothing. I’m over 18 and under 23.

    I have no choice but to live on my own; as in, I can’t live with other people. Not that I wont.

    From the day I walked into WINZ it was bad news after bad news, and every single day I still dread getting a letter from them saying for one reason or another my benefit has been cancelled, I need a new medical certificate (was on sickness before invalids), I need to go do something that’d be more stressful and time consuming than actually working in itself. They made me work for my benefit.

    So now I live in my own in the cheapest, smallest, apartment I could ever possibly find.

    And I can’t afford to live here anymore, because the financial stress is overwhelming and I’m finding myself going completely bankrupt trying to pay the bills.

    They absolutely refuse to help me pay for my phone and/or internet which without would lead to complete isolation almost the rest of my life as I depend on both as a medium to keep in contact with other people. If I could get to a doctor, which even had I little financial problems would be stressful for me, I could explain, with extreme difficulty, how I can NOT go without it, it’s possible, that when I’ve worked myself half to death, I might get an order for them to *help* pay my phone bill, which, in experience, would get me $5 a month extra.

    So because WINZ neglect to give me sufficient money or putting any effort into understanding that I have two simple necessities common humanity DON’T share with me (net/phone and living alone) I rarely get to so much as eat properly.

    I’m sick, and thanks to WINZ, I’m only getting sicker because I have no time or money to get treatment. Over time I have learned this stuff that is in this guide, and it’s because I needed it (not because I wanted or planned to rip anyone off) and it is good information for people with a LEGIT situation.

    I once asked WINZ for $30 for a doctor, and they said since they pay me $1 a week over the course of the year I am expected to have the money for it myself for maybe two visits per year, and this is the treatment given to someone who has no real hope of having an actual life – I’ve needed a doctor for months and months, and I will never get to see one. Every day I dread when my shoes fall apart, my clothes are all torn, something essential breaks, because I can not pay it. And I can not afford to pay an advance.

    This is what WINZ is to me.

  127. Beth says:

    Re: Sira comment

    I for one have tried to find suitable employment over the past few years but it is not a easy thing to attain. I have multipliable illness that limited what I am able to do.
    I am luckily in that I do have a part time job which I am only able to do with the help of taking pills to keep me standing. Three are days that the pain drives me insane but now with the pills I can work, but the side effects leads to other forms of being ill and not able to work. I totally understand that there are those who so rip off the system but there are those who do not.
    Each day is a blessing when you have the strength to get out of bed and be able to do the daily task of taking care of oneself, it is when you are unable to, when you are the person who is alone with you illness. But even as you are alone you are made to jump through the WINZ minefields of red tape. Never once getting a clear path to the end as you proform for a person who while trained in the art of what you are able to get and not get but never really understanding what it will mean for you, when they have a job that paids them enough to paid their bills.
    But you get to joy of jumping from mine to another with no one to turn to, it is in that moment that it doesn’t seems so fair.

  128. dave says:

    sira, if yuou leave a contact enmail address or ph number here I`ll contact you – alternatively ring the Salient office and ask for me – I should be able to offer some assistance in your dealings with WINZ.

  129. Linda (Porirua) says:

    Mike Bryant is wallowing in total ignorance! There are some very cruel case managers out there who deliberately withhold information from suffering clients. When I was studying on the DPB my accommodation costs were killing me. My children were literally starving, I used food grants up very quickly. My case manager was very aware of this. I only learned from the financial assistance person on campus during my second year that there was such a thing as a Special Benefit, and that I qualified. On going back to my case manager and asking about it she just shrugged and said OK. She was very aware of entitlements. Also, assistance for medical care is a total failure, as it only pays in arrears, so if like me you can not actually afford the first Doctors visit, you don’t get any. If you can not afford the first prescription, you get no help as you have to produce a receipt to qualify for help.The truth, Mike Bryant, is that beneficiaries are treated as scum by quite a few of your people, and you have some staff who can only be described as sadists who get their kicks out of watching children starve. I am not exaggerating. I and my children lived it. Is it any real wonder, as recent media articles have reported, why more and more people are being hospitalized with easily treatable and preventable illnesses?

  130. Nic says:

    i got the wandering eye do do do do doo

  131. andy says:

    Anyone on a benefit needs to have these links bookmarked:

    Rates/Cutoffs: http://www.workandincome.govt.nz/manuals-and-procedures/deskfile/index.htm

    Core benefit Info (including qualifications):
    http://www.workandincome.govt.nz/manuals-and-procedures/income_support/main_benefits/index.htm

    Extra Help (supplementaries/SNG/advances)
    http://www.workandincome.govt.nz/manuals-and-procedures/income_support/extra_help/index.htm

    Employment and training help:
    http://www.workandincome.govt.nz/manuals-and-procedures/employment_and_training/index.htm

    Complaints can be done via the Contact Centre, and are responded to pretty quickly. There are plenty of changes introduced recently, the onus is now on the Case Managers and Customer Service Reps to fully inform clients of all possible entitlements.

  132. Nic this is no time for Fat Freddy’s!!

  133. Rachel Hona says:

    I cant believe it…Talk about trashing the down and out.My god if you walked into winz this many times you would be a full time employee…to claim these many things…You have your head on planet pluto.I have been on the DPB And i spent 6mths watching my daughter try to survive..She was born at 24wks Gestation.Her father hopped on a plane back to ozzy the day i watched her have 10 apanea attacks one after another,she was on oxygen for months and we left the hospital with her on oxygen.I went to my rented apartment not flash but clean to live off a measley income.I was a high income earner before but couldnt go back to work.They dnt have oxygen cylinders at daycare.And i didnt envision been a single parent.But yes im responsible i stuck by my baby, her father didnt and now we just get by,I kid you not.This has been the most challenging year of my life.And those of you that work good on you be grateful you could end up like this one day.Who knows whats around the corner?
    No one in there right mind likes to live in poverty,you definitely dont get rich this way…Have a heart and sort out your ego…..Dickhead..

  134. Rosemary says:

    I totally agree with Linda,
    I am sure that when this article was written it was by a person who hadn`t had a traumatic experience or had a life changing event so bad that their life would never be the same because when you`re down and vunerable the W&I system just has no room for mercy or compassion, even when facts are presented they still are very deceptive, unreasonable and it is impossible to get a straight answer to a question.
    I think the title is appropriate because that`s how the case managers seem to treat the add-ons, as though even to mention entitlements is ripping them off.
    Thank-you for the information, it will help alot of people, I had no idea these things existed. The first time I walked into a W&I office I thought how strange to have a security guard by the desk, after one visit I knew why. Desperate, not having enough money to put food on the table for a growing child,frustration and being treated without any rights.

  135. dave says:

    Actually Rosemary, I worte that article. And youy are so wrong. I have been made redundant twice, and have been a client of WINZ, so I am well aware of the WINZ environment. Also, WINZ staff are not as unreasonable as you make out.

  136. kerron davy says:

    plz give me my money back you say you would give me my money if i did not like the survey es so give me my money

  137. Ben Folds says:

    … and don’t forget my Black T-Shirts.

  138. Maree says:

    Ups to you Rachael and Laura (comment made August) for putting your families first. I’m so sick of people criticising women on the D.P.B. Not all are ‘bludgers’. When males are single parents, on the D.P.B, very seldom are they criticized, but deemed ‘great’ because they are looking after THEIR’ children.

  139. DTA says:

    Its interesting how many objections are based on “MY taxpayer money and ME working hard so that…” . Just so there’s no confusion everyone will benefit from taxpayer money at some point, thats why we pay it. The ppl who actually abuse the benefit is a minority which is the case in almost any form of tax funded initiatives. The overweight do it by being too lazy to get outside etc which results in increased health costs which set us back about $20 each per year!!! Isn’t that shocking.. Imagine if we just let all those fatties and those dole bludgers die of excessive eating and starvation respectively and instead put that $20 towards a bigger TV?!?! Im sure your personal satisfaction would be incalculable..

    On a more serious note however this article is merely making ppl aware of their entitlements as many others have pointed out. It doesn’t say you should go on the benefit just because you can make use of its amazing array of entitlements, but rather that if you do, at least get what you should expect from a welfare state. That’s what NZ is; yes at the expense of a few ppl not being able to upgrade their car or stereo.. Its not as though your kids can’t go to school, its not as though you have to get a loan to have that vital operation. Simply put if you don’t like the idea of everyone being able to expect a reasonable standard of living then go to the States or Asia and crawl over the beggars on the streets.

  140. wealth creates fat says:

    That’s what NZ is; yes at the expense of a few ppl not being able to upgrade their car or stereo..

    What about the vicious trickledown effect and reduction in the credit multiplier? And the disincentives to attain wealth and the ‘poverty trap’? And the socially enshrined attitudes (as represented on these boards among others) against the accumulation of personal wealth and thereby social improvement?

    Answer me thereby you piddling fencesitter

  141. Matt says:

    Interesting. Could be this be the same Dave Crampton who gave my girlfriend – who I can attest is far too honest for her own good – a hell f a hard time as her case manager! Not possible surely.

    The same guy who rang her up and yelled at her repeatedly after she said she was just trying to find a park so she could talk while she wasn’t driving. No, not possible.

    Who then when she did find a park swore at her and continued yelling.

    Same Dave Crampton who when my girlfriend laid a complaint only remembering his first name was told it was Crampton in a rather unsurprised tone by the operator.

    And now he’s telling us how to get things legally. How helpful. Shame he never told her any of this

  142. Dave says:

    Get fucked mate – if you’re trying to defame me it won’t work. Get a life, jackass!

  143. not sure says:

    I find this article interesting, and especially your comments. One that caught my eye was someone stated that they were “too white”. I have heard my brother say the same thing many a time, if this is true from work & income, I find that very disrespectful to our country.
    How does a family get on with an income of $400 – $500 (full time work), 2 children under 5yrs age, accomodation supliment of $20, medical condition such as a diabetic in the house on daily injections requiring regular doc visits, plus the top up benefit of $20 – $30. Partner full timer, while stay at home mummy has no income at all. Rent and AP’s/direct debits totalling to $400 wkly prior to buying food, power, phone, clothing.

    CAN THE STAY AT HOME MUMMY RECIEVE ANY HELP FROM WINZ

    We cant afford to put our children into daycare, eldest in morning kindy under the 20hrs free system (3yrs – 5yrs). Our youngest is 2yrs, so he is not entitled for that system yet…another 12mths away yet. I cant have a job while looking after my two young.

    I have also heard that Work & Income can not force the parent whom is caring for their young out to work till the youngest is 14yrs of age….not sure if this is true.

    Any suggestions anyone??????

    HELP NEEDED AND FAST

  144. dave crampton says:

    re: Feb 3 comment :”dave”

    I dont know who wrote that – but it wasnt me – nor was I the case manager Perhaps Mattt, you were working and living with your girlfriend and your girlfrend shouldnt heave even been on the benefit”

    BTW ” Not sure” you can contact me via Salient for a chat of you want.. you can get a child care subsidy and a child disability allowance.

  145. "sophia" says:

    This why I get treated like shit, every time I apply for something, even though I have a legitmate, and obvious disability. If you really need it, fine. If you don’t, why do it?
    I’m getting my fees paid, yes.
    I’m getting extra care, yes.
    I would give it up in a flash for a job at the supermarket. Hell, I would give up on education, if I could get my health back.
    Iam getting an education, in the hopes of one day being able to support myself.
    I might be crippled, but I still got some pride. Think about it.

  146. Nic says:

    think think about it

    good cops get framed and put into a can
    and all the money that we’re making is going to the man

  147. Byter says:

    *****Open question****

    Can someone please tell me Why is it so hard for the “Work brokers” (insert laugh here) to assist people who have just become unemployed (2 months ago).
    As my experience so far dealing with Work and Income has been Strange!!!.

    To start, I have have to move back into my family home while looking employment (still you can’t beat mum’s home cooking).
    I have been told that I can not turn down any work that is offered to me (no disrespect to anyone, it’s just not me…. pumping gas,…etc) yet I have years of Auditing experience and am once again back at Uni part time trying to increase my employee value.
    That I must come into the W&I office once a week, and I need to keep a “work book’ to prove that I am indeed looking for employment.
    Yet when I did have a Job interview two weeks ago and needed a little assistance to get back to Auckland, I was told i was still in “Stand down” and such W&I would not help!!!

    Does it not make sense that if W&I were to help me attend that interview there was a good chance the I would not have to go on the dole in the first place…..

    All the hoops that W&I make you jump through, just take up time that the unemplyed could be spending finding rewarding, well paying work.
    Because in the end NO ONE WANTS TO BE JOBLESS AND ON THE DOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Can someone please tell me Why is it so hard for the “Work brokers” (insert laugh here) to assist people who have just become unemployed (2 months ago).
    As my experience so far dealing with Work and Income has been Strange!!!.

    To start, I have to move back into my family home while looking employment (still you can’t beat mum’s home cooking).
    I have been told that I can not turn down any work that is offered to me (no disrespect to anyone, it’s just not me…. pumping gas, etc) yet I have years of Auditing experience and am once again back at Uni part time trying to increase my employee value.
    That I must come into the W&I office once a week, and I need to keep a “work book’ to prove that I am indeed looking for employment.
    Yet when I did have a Job interview two weeks ago and needed a little assistance to get back to Auckland, I was told I was still in “Stand down” and such W&I would not help!!!

    Does it not make sense that if W&I were to help me attend that interview there was a good chance I would not have to go on the dole in the first place?

    All the hoops that W&I make you jump through just take up time that the unemployed could be spending finding rewarding, well paying work.
    Because in the end NO ONE WANTS TO BE JOBLESS AND ON THE DOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  148. Byter says:

    Sorry did not mean to double up my comment………….;o) and Amy if you happen to read this YES!!! I have got your Book still……..sorry haha

  149. Dilly says:

    Get a job you lazy ars…. ho…. Student or unemployed.. Man you people are so clever in what you are writing you should be earning money for your efforts. For those of you who are sharing your bad experiences with Work and Income, then tell the whole story not wot you want to, to get a big ups…. you scabs. DPBs big ups to you and your decision to choose to support your children… Government assistance is there for exactly that…. single rate approx. $4.00 per hour on Unemployment Benefit. Hourly rate (thats for work!!! – even at the gas station pumping petrol) will be $12.00 minimum 18+ .next month……Your choice…

  150. Susy says:

    Matt whoes girl friend was Daves – get over it. Meanwhile, bloody brilliant article Dave. Worked for winz years and years and years ago when it was run by human beings.
    Now for all you idiots who think the bludgers of the world are using your tax money ——-THINK AGAIN.!!!!!!!! It NEVER WAS OR IS EVER GOING TO BE YOUR MONEY!!!!!!
    Because incase you didnt realize oh morons of the planet — the government taketh and they aint going to give it back because they need it for what ever they bloody well like and if they werent using it for the bludgers or their fancy coffee machines in their offices then they are going to use it elsewhere. You know it I know it they know it so get over it. ITS NOT YOUR MONEY – IF IT WAS YOU WOULDNT BE GETTING PAID THAT BLOODY MUCH OR LITTLE WHAT EVER.!!!!!!! AND HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOUR SO CALLED PAYE GOES EVERY WEEK………..YOU DONT SO SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU PACK OF SOOKS.

    okay so we have established the the system can be ripped off ……… I use to think poorly of once upon a time but hey why not. I am anti WINZ purely because of what i see them do to people, and no, i am not going to tolerate anyone saying to me ……..well if it wasnt for the rip offs, everyone would be better off…….bullshit……these people are payed on a so called commission basis to save the department money….mostly by a pack of young bureaucratic idiots that are on such a power trip its not funny…and possibly for this reason alone i would condone YIP THATS WHAT I SAID misuse of the so called system. To the genuine bludgers good job if you get caught, good on yah if yu dont………..to the genuine needy well heres wishing you luck in your dealings and knowledge of your entitlements and the ability to talk to brick walls (this requires plenty of practice) To you young ones who winz trample on every single time because your young and that makes you automatically a genuine bludger, go find a parent or advocate who can help you out because the department IS RIPPING YOU OFF and if you have no luck then learn learn learn how to do unto others as they would have done unto you.

    Bit of a laugh to all those few afore me, your concern is genuinely noted by the effort yous have put into directing the undirected to the Legal links for winz. Joke, your so called legislation etc……….is the only thing winz staff probably wouldnt know (very intelligent lot) and they know alot…..they know they cant give this and cant give that and guess what they wouldnt even have to look it up……ask them to quote anything off winz’s site and yip…….they will have to look it up to see if your correct…….then they will use one of their quick come backs so as not to make them look like such an idiot. They have a theory….I HAVE THE POWER TO USE MY DISCRETION, UP THE LEGISLATION YOU BLUDGERS AND SICK PEOPLE AND DESPERATELY NEEDY PEOPLE. Ok theres still a few good ones around. Hey you wouldnt happen to have any in your area would you.

    Rachel Hona, sad but get over it—obviously you dont know how to work the system so get yourself an advocate girl and stop griping about your wooos.

    What i know is this, the system is changing every single day, it protects winz mainly from themselves and their fuck ups so we have to get use to the fact that they are the most intelligent idiots around………hey they do work for the government after all.

    Get a job dont get a job who cares, better things in life to concern myself with and having said that it is time for me to go back to work so i can earn some more money to help pay another bludger, sick person, needy person …….what ever person…….i dont care see, if the tax i have to pay which was never mine in the first place doesnt pay one of yous then it will pay some cabinet ministers all expense paid trip to the next world cup…….hey yeah, i think i like that idea better

  151. PACK OF SOOKS says:

    ITS NOT YOUR MONEY – IF IT WAS YOU WOULDNT BE GETTING PAID THAT BLOODY MUCH OR LITTLE WHAT EVER.!!!!!!! AND HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOUR SO CALLED PAYE GOES EVERY WEEK………..YOU DONT SO SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU PACK OF SOOKS.

    Maybe then we should vote out the government and vote in the people who will reduce taxation and give a clearer idea of where it’s going and why. Corrupt and opaque governments don’t tend to stay in power for long. You have no understanding of the democratic process.

    yip

  152. Susy says:

    HHHeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooo – Did i mention the words CORRUPT and OPAQUE. And you really need to re read what i wrote because it was aimed at those of you whommmmmm thinkkkkkk their tax pays for the bludgers of the world. And where do you get off telling me this government is democratic — those days are gone baby ohhh and for the record, i very much understand the democratic process —— i studied law for a few years.

    yip

  153. Helen says:

    You studied law for a few years? Pardon me for gaping in disbelief. Your spelling, sentence structure and grammar leave much to be desired.

    Many people need and deserve to be receiving benefits from Work and Income. However there will always be the people who try and scam the system to avoid living in the real world. The average full-time student does not have the hours to devote to a job that could sustain their living arrangements. Rents and living prices are high. Who can blame students for getting a few hand outs now and then? After all, they will one day contribute to the economy while many who bludge off the dole will not.

  154. yip says:

    Hello to you too. Taxes do pay for the bludgers of the world. Do you believe that money sprouts out of the ground like a young potato? It doesn’t.

    I believe we are living in a system that is basically parliamentarily democratic. Anyone who understood the democratic process could tell that with relative ease.

  155. Susy says:

    You studied law for a few years? Pardon me for gaping in disbelief. Your spelling, sentence structure and grammar leave much to be desired.

    Ever seen a doctors hand writing, hhmm, i suppose they arn’t particularly concerned with dotting there i’s and q’s (so to speak) no that would make them politicaly correct.

    The average full-time student does not have the hours to devote to a job that could sustain their living arrangements. Rents and living prices are high. Who can blame students for getting a few hand outs now and then? After all, they will one day contribute to the economy.

    Well we would hope so, there are afterall alot of students in the bludging line.

    Hello to you too. Taxes do pay for the bludgers of the world. Do you believe that money sprouts out of the ground like a young potato? It doesn’t.

    I believe we are living in a system that is basically parliamentarily democratic. Anyone who understood the democratic process could tell that with relative ease.

    Read again my comment taa.

    Wasting my time, wasting my time. NEXT PLEASE

  156. tori says:

    Im sori dave but rosemary & linda are telling the truth. ive had so many similar apaling experiences with SO MANY WINZ CASE MANAGERS who deliberately withhold entitlements & are so cruel because even though u do or dont know about these entlements they act dumb & say I dont know then turn around & take an uneducated guess & say i dont think u really need it or dont meet all criteria which is bullocks, they lied & they literally want me to beg or break down & cry. yes i had to put up wit some of winz bullsh#t because if i didnt my child went hungry or homeless. & I never new about the special benefit which could of helped me in my situation. I found out about foodbanks, other helpful organisations & i finally found out about the review process which is a totally different story altogether, all on my own not from winz. Anyway I got a threatning call from a case manager just because i made a complaint against her.Her behaviour or customer service sucked. She was unprofesstional and she was not doing her job properly ,now this case manager treated me so unfiarly too. i wrote a complaint & went through the correct review process. It took nearly 5 months i finally got a reply(note i never gave up ringing) my complaint was confirmed i was right & the case manager was wrong. I was in a relationship, had one child & i worked full-time for a number of years.i was doing ok basically just surviving but the father or ex-partner abandoned us . So i worked (i even worked until i was nine months). I eventually had to leave work & visited winz to go on the dpb. i explained my financial situation & needed help. instead the case manager said i had a three week stand down & she wont be able to help me.she never even mentioned any entiltlements such as accommodation,food grant which at that time i didnt even know existed. i walked away & i almost cried. In the bac of my mind i knew I was in trouble & financially I was going to lose everything i had worked for(good credit) & i had no control over my life at that point. I had no money for food ,rent..etc so I gave notice within those three weeks to move bac to my parents. i never became aware of these entitlements through winz case managers but word of mouth. so when i brought these entiltlements up with my case manager(s) they made it difficult for me to recieve them. for what reasons? they just kept making them up. oh yes i also heard bout casemanagers getting commisison I always felt maybe that was one of the reasons why they wouldnt help. then i found out that winz case managers were throwing people into any job just to get paid commission instead of lookin at their experience or skills or degree.

  157. tori says:

    i just want to say suzy thanks for telling the real story. everything you mentioned about those winz bast#rds is TRUE(yes their are few who try to help but they know whats going on and do nothing) THANKS FOR BEING HONEST. U mentioned how winz help each other to cover up their mistakes, u are so right about that too. i made a complaint towards a case manager because i was treated unfairly, two other case managers were present & witnessed this & later denied it ever happened. The reason why i was not believed i believe i was discriminated because i was a single parent and unemployed whos knows maybe cause i was islander too. Can i also point out that Winz work for the GOVERNMENT & im disappointed with the government because they allowed this sort of emotional abuse to go on. The government gave winz the job to deal with us ordinary folk so they can concentrate on other issues & making the rich richer while we stay the same or even worse off. As a single parent i feel sometimes its just hopeless & very difficult to not be depressedI I can only work part-time (which is not much) I have worked two full-time jobs but lost or had to leave because of some reasons like my child needs to be sent home from school because of illness or accident so i have to leave work to pic my child up frm school . i mean i dont have a partner to pick up & to take care of my child sometimes or is at home while sometimes i have to work weekends i dont have that support so i have to be home before 2:30. i wil always have one income not two. Singles especially students. oh i remember i was a working student. But now my daily routine is so busy by the time its 8:30pm and my child is alseep im exhausted. I can only get one or two hours study at night because i have to get up early in the morning attend my child & IT NEVER ENDS IT GOES ON FOREVER.U even see average family income earners finding themselves at the bottom off the ladder trying to make a living so if i can recall a couple of elections ago everyone was afraid The National Party only wanted to ensure the rich got richer & the poorer got poorer, wel i think the labour govt have done it already. The real issue is that labour government is ripping us all off . just want to mention pay rates still two low.its just common sense.

  158. Nicola says:

    As a Solo-mother of one, i found that being on a benefit isnt enough to live or survive on. no matter how much your entitled too it still isnt enough.

    Here is abit of a breakdown that i get as well as many other solo mothers

    WAGES – $580.00 after TAX. 32 hours per week
    Family Assistance – $150.00 per week
    Childcare Subs – Paid in full by WINZ,
    I pay $4.90 per week, for Fulltime Childcare, thats 7am – 5.30pm
    Im also entitled to all that WINZ has to ofter. Even tho i am not on a benefit.

    So that in itself is alot more than what a benefit actually has to offer.

  159. S Thompson says:

    I found this article to be hilarious, but true.

    There are alot of beneficiarys taking Winz (Government) Tax payer for granted and actually doing this stuff. There are some workers at Winz doing this, they are on DPB and working part time at Winz, just imagine the subsidys and all other grants they are getting. NO QUESTIONS ASKED!!!(This is Fact) my cousins bestfriend works there!!

    Most people that work do not like it but dont have a say in the matter if they did there would be no such thing as Winz.

    There are some decent unemployed people out there that dont take this for granted and do manage to get by on what is given to them. some working people hate the thought of someone being unemmployed, but the unemployment is not happy either, most people would be lucky to survive on the payments.

    Alot of beneficiarys are not told what they are intittled to, unless they find out on a website like this, word of mouth and other sources. I think it is their right to know.

    I know people on benefits who wished to god they werent, but because of sickness, living situations they can not avoid it. Ive herd alot of stories about Winz cover up and lack of customer service, I have friends telling me about the hundreds of questions they ask before getting a simple 70 dollar food grant. Anyone would think it were the case managers money they were borrowing!!

    Well anyway im in paid employment and so is my husband, we pay tax, it goes to the government etc etc etc Its not coming back to us, I wonder if I can make a claim with inland revenue and add WINZ beneficiaries as a charity and get it back that way!! lol well nothing against Dpb or unemployed JUST THE GOVERNMENT!!!!

  160. S Thompson says:

    Both my parents work to this day and have been since I was 2, my dad always talked about benefits and things concerning and said to me if I ever was to go unemployed for some reason he wouldnt mind at least he’d know that his hard wroked money was going to a member of his family. So thats how I am, I dont mind unemployed atleast I know where my money goes i suppose. I wish we employed got a bit of the Governments Taxes ay, then we can all be happy!!!

  161. DTA says:

    What about the vicious trickledown effect and reduction in the credit multiplier? And the disincentives to attain wealth and the ‘poverty trap’? And the socially enshrined attitudes (as represented on these boards among others) against the accumulation of personal wealth and thereby social improvement?

    Answer me thereby you piddling fencesitter

    What about the “vicious trickledown effect”.. are you trying to say that in a case where individuals are exercising their rights that’s somehow outweighed by your trickledown effects. Disincentives to attain wealth, wow that is a problem isn’t it.. much worse than people having their basic needs (and yes maybe a couple of extas) met. Social improvement is exactly that, a social issue. I don’t see how a government funded initiative is going to change that or could in any great way perpetrate it any more than raising the drinking age will change our binge culture. Also im not entirely convinced that there is a direct link between amassing personal wealth and social improvement. But hey if wealth and personal gain are so important to you im sure you’ll be greeted with open arms by our friends across the tasman.

  162. DTA says:

    Wealth creats fat: What about the vicious trickledown effect and reduction in the credit multiplier? And the disincentives to attain wealth and the ‘poverty trap’? And the socially enshrined attitudes (as represented on these boards among others) against the accumulation of personal wealth and thereby social improvement?

    Answer me thereby you piddling fencesitter

    Yes what about the “vicious trickledown effect”..? are you trying to say that in a case where individuals are exercising their rights that’s somehow outweighed by your trickledown effects. Disincentives to attain wealth, wow that is a problem isn’t it.. much more important than people having their basic needs (and yes maybe a couple of extas) met. Social improvement is exactly that, a social issue. I don’t see how a government funded initiative is going to change that or could in any great way perpetrate it any more than raising the drinking age will change our binge culture. Also im not entirely convinced that there is a direct link between amassing personal wealth and social improvement. Are you perhaps suggesting that the best members of society conveniently happen to be the wealthiest.. if wealth and personal gain are so important to you im sure you’ll be greeted with open arms by our friends across the tasman.

  163. DTA says:

    my bad for posting twice..

  164. te bunny says:

    hy i am a student on the indipendence youth benefit
    i have just found out what my entitlenments are i am interested in this website as it allows people to find out what winz in really all about
    can you let me no what else i am entitled to???

  165. Natasha Me te Shane Whitley says:

    hey this shit is fuken bullshit how can you write shit lyke this people that are working really wanna no this crap your site is shit
    it licks arse

  166. 'natasha shut up says:

    hey this is sussane from computers matapuna
    work and income WON”T tell you what your entitled to becouse if they dont they get it for a bonus at xmas tyme you noobs

  167. Natasha says:

    Hey guys
    Wow did i have fun reading the pathetic comments on this page.. dating back to August last year.
    For the people sticking up for Work and Income case managers, heres a story.
    Do you realise it is their job to NOT tell you what you are entitled to? The less grants, advances, benefits and other forms of income that they dont give out, the bigger the Christmas bond at the end of the year is.
    Hows that?
    They are in a job to help people who need it, yet that is contradicted by their dishonesty in not telling people their entitlements. So really, they aren’t helping anybody but themselves and the stupid bond they get for not helping people.
    I have been waiting three weeks so far for my case manager to tell me whether I am entitled to a specific benefit or not. I have been to Three appointments at various places and was told that last friday i would get called to give me a definite answer. It is now Monday Afternoon, three weeks later. And I rang them, to get told that my Case Manager, doesn’t work on a Monday.
    \
    She has been there every other monday that I have had meetings with her.

    Too shy to pick up the phone perhaps?

    Or maybe its because she knows shes about to get yelled at down the phone line.

    For some people it isnt a case of getting off their bums. If you are studying full time, there is no time to work. Weekeneds and week nights are taken up doing study, so there is no time for even a part time job. Yet there are still bills to be paid, even more if there is rent and power bills to be dealt with.

    Students in NZ are treated like shit. The longer it takes for you lot to realise that, the longer you are all in denial with the rest of the stupid fuckwits who don’t know what they are talking about.

  168. Luffs Coffee says:

    @ Dave.
    Alot i knew about. But unless i really really need it i wont ask Winz for help I get enough help as it is from them.

    First: Don’t blame Winz staff its the government who sets the rules where poor winz are the suckers who have to get it out. Blame the government vote for National next time cause Labour don’t give a sht they just top us up with extra money when it looks bad, single parents get a lot of top ups! Im on $386 a week, I started of on $340 it creeps up over the two yrs to $386 Every now and then i’ll get a $10 top up??? Hell no i’m not complaining either but it beats me. IF THEY COULD CHANGE THOSE TOP UPS FOR JOB INTERVIEWS TO GO ALONG TO I WOULD RATHER THAT. Than just throw abit of extra cash in everynow and then!.

    Every time i speak out its like I get a top up to shut me up? lol

    They think we’re all thick-skull ppl we shouldn’t be able to question them they hate this. And in most cases will punish you for it. I’m in my 40′s been a solo parent with two sons all my life practically, im a burden to them i know my chances of getting a full time job are dim, yet i still try. I have done yrs of voluntary work, part time work, crap labor jobs “I have worked for sht pay for too long jobs” to Admin computer jobs.

    Every job i got in the past i got through myself, contacts of my own etc., Winz never have gotten me a job over the many yrs being a single parent. Not one has rung, me telling me of some work in town. And they put out claims each yr at how many ppl they help in getting jobs, they also fail to mention how many of those are on part-time work , couple of months contract work or how many are on the sickness benefit.
    If they can help you get there they will. Hell guys ive heard of ppl out there that aren’t even farking sick yet winz (unknown to winz they were faking it) helped them get on the sickness benefit. If it gets the unemployed numbers down they will help. Right.

    Another easy way is just top up our benefit and send us to their emotional bullshit retarded meetings where they talk a load of complete utter crap we have to listen too. Winz is a total mess. Hey why am i complaining they top me up, i can run to winz tomorrow and ask for a pair of new eye glasses, need some shoes no problem, how about some gold fillings SURE! Oh out of food cause you spent it on beer last Saturday? No problem go see winz. Just top us up.

    Top ups is Winz middle name.

    A typical day at Winz.
    Oh I must of reallyy pissed winz off in my home town last yrs (my crime i spoke out went to the top and got a ph call from one of Winz bosses in Christchurch was told that my customer officer will be getting hold of me to apologies). I got the apology *yes it felt good* but now i have to do this BS scheme till the end of March which i presume is their way of getting back at me, but im pissing them off cause i and this other young lady out of the 10 or so ppl are the only ones going by the rules ie we have to have a job sheet with proof we looked for 4 jobs each week. No sweat easy as.

    But the others just have an excuse each week “Oh sry miss i forgot it, “Oh i left it at home, Oh miss i’ll bring it next week, Oh miss i did have it filled out but my missus put my jeans in the wash last night and its destroyed miss…

    Yet while at the same time we have three Winz staff members preaching to us twice a week in turns telling us YOU MUST BRING IN YOUR JOB SHEET or your benefit will be cut and why we must read the letters sent out to us why this why that. Nothing has happen to them. Which depends how you look at it is a good thing for them but it comes down to just more preaching and bullshiting from Winz staff.

    They don’t practice what they preach!

    This is how it should be:
    Right you never brought in your sheet, benefit cut until you do.

    Besides I need to know who writes up these seminars & schemes they are the biggest load of rubbish i get to hear – someone in the government department is on P, I thought about one time i’ll go in to one of these meetings wired so i can record there BS and send it to say Close up to let the country know this is the shit we have to put up with – or just upload it to youtube for the whole world to hear :) Its like listening to something out of a faire tale. We like to call these “meeting” the “Final Solution” meetings – hence During WW2 the Nazis final solution towards the Jews. 60+ yrs later its Winz final solution towards the unemployed. :) No offence to the Jewish ppl, just poking fun at winz in a dark humorist way

    During these final solutions we are bombarded with repeats of the last meetings its all about putting fear into us letting us know If we go wrong we will be suspended bla, bla rah rah. I thought when i signed to go to these meetings ( i had no choice) that they will be throwing jobs at us left right and center to go too you know Winz they should have the contacts right??? But ive been 4 times now and each time its the same discussion same drumming in the if you don’t do this or this you will be suspended — yet every week some of us there don’t do what they told.

    I’m off tomorrow for my next meeting at 2pm will hand them my job sheet with my new jobs i applied for. I’ll sit down ready to hear the same thing over and over each time. I’ll make sure not to question their methods cause that will only cause a stink. Might just take in my usb recorder for backup never know might come in handly one day :) In fact anyone reading this thats on the dole or about too, heres some advice – grab a usb recorder, they are small enough to just put in your pocket, when ever you think a conversation needs recording do it! One day without a doubt your come across one winz staff telling you she/he never said no such thing. Your trusty recorder is that back up. :)

    ** Like i said before don’t blame Winz staff though, they’re just doing their job you can’t help though pointing the finger at them yet behind the curtain is our Government. Iits Labour/Greens they don’t give a sht!. Ive never voted in my life for National, but this election i will be i know they’re are hard on beneficiaries but this is a good thing. Hell cut my benefit to half, make me come in daily to see the knew jobs winz has to offer for me to go try. I’m all for that just don’t farking top me up tell me to shut up and go to the pathetic emotional retarded Winz seminars.***

    regards
    Luffs Coffee.

    To all the winz lurkers…. Hi *waves*

  169. Luffs Coffee says:

    PS. Oh hell i just realize this website is part of a student magazine! lol i thought this was just a forum type for anyone to post.

    I was searching for something else and came across your page about Winz. Just had to have my say in the matter :)

    Thank Google.

  170. Dave says:

    te bunny. You asked what else you are entitled to? You are probably entitled to a literacy course.

  171. Wealth creates fat says:

    DTA: ‘What about the “vicious trickledown effect”.. are you trying to say that in a case where individuals are exercising their rights that’s somehow outweighed by your trickledown effects.’

    The more people are taxed, the less money there is, and the less employment there is. People who claim cell phones and new suits on top of their beneficiary allowance should be mindful that the money comes from someone else.

    DTA: ‘Disincentives to attain wealth, wow that is a problem isn’t it.. much more important than people having their basic needs (and yes maybe a couple of extas) met.’

    Well, it is a problem if you want all your brightest young recent graduates to stay within the country’s borders. Unless they don’t mind paying for a couple extas.

    ‘I don’t see how a government funded initiative is going to change that or could in any great way perpetrate it any more than raising the drinking age will change our binge culture. ‘

    It’s called reducing tax. [I] And it works. [\I]

    DTA: ‘Social improvement is exactly that, a social issue.’

    I agree. Until New Zealanders overcome their resentment towards the rich it is unlikely that we will have economic growth as comparatively robust as, say, Ireland’s. The problem is enormous and goes right down to New Zealanders’ psychological attitudes towards money.

    DTA: ‘…our friends across the tasman.’

    Did you know that as a NZ citizen you are fully entitled to live and work indefinitely in Australia as a special resident? Maybe you can write an article about that if you are so keen on helping students out?

  172. DTA says:

    Wealth creates fat: The more people are taxed, the less money there is, and the less employment there is. People who claim cell phones and new suits on top of their beneficiary allowance should be mindful that the money comes from someone else.

    Yes, the money does come from someone else, the government, who currently have a surplus but have so far failed to initiate tax cuts. They did however mention that this was on their agenda after these elections, but hey they’re politicians, need I say more. With that in mind I don’t beleive you can hold a welfare beneficiary directly responsible for the current tax rates at this point of time. Furthermore I think you’ll find that the “extras” I mention are only provided on the understanding that the beneficiary will use them to improve their current socio-economic position. I think that could be seen as social improvement..

    Wealth creates fat: It’s called reducing tax. [I] And it works. [\I]

    I agree that tax cuts will provide a greater incentive to remain here, perhaps if these tax cuts are initiated we will hopefully see greater incentives for people to remain here. Still don’t see why we should be shaking the fist at beneficiaries

    Wealth creates far: I agree. Until New Zealanders overcome their resentment towards the rich it is unlikely that we will have economic growth as comparatively robust as, say, Ireland’s. The problem is enormous and goes right down to New Zealanders’ psychological attitudes towards money.

    Perhaps that’s a factor for shall we say our marginal economic growth. However, I would say that resentment towards the wealthy isn’t exactly a direct cause for people to end up on the benefit. I’m sure we’d all like to have a few extra dollars in our pockets. I can understand that individuals lacking financially may abuse the welfare system which results in bringing further detriment to taxpayers however. But again they are a minority. I think you’d see a whole lot more resentment if we removed the benefit all together. I can see parallels to the Russian revolution lol because there is a significant gap between the very poor and very wealthy here in NZ which is widening. But hey I suppose that could be seen as a good thing. Not sure how much economic growth will come out of a resentful population though

  173. wealth creates fat says:

    ‘Yes, the money does come from someone else, the government, who currently have a surplus but have so far failed to initiate tax cuts.’

    So tax cuts should be a priority then. Put some limits on welfare and we can cut back tax even more. Unless your aim is to be fiscally conservative which is a whole different bag of tricks.

    ‘With that in mind I don’t beleive you can hold a welfare beneficiary directly responsible for the current tax rates at this point of time. … Still don’t see why we should be shaking the fist at beneficiaries’

    Nobody’s shaking fists. The question at the heart of it all is whether NZ would be better off with or without the welfare state.

    ‘Furthermore I think you’ll find that the “extras” I mention are only provided on the understanding that the beneficiary will use them to improve their current socio-economic position.’

    Is that the understanding this article claims to promote? ‘How to rip off WINZ’?

    ‘Perhaps that’s a factor for shall we say our marginal economic growth. However, I would say that resentment towards the wealthy isn’t exactly a direct cause for people to end up on the benefit. I’m sure we’d all like to have a few extra dollars in our pockets. I can understand that individuals lacking financially may abuse the welfare system which results in bringing further detriment to taxpayers however. But again they are a minority. I think you’d see a whole lot more resentment if we removed the benefit all together. I can see parallels to the Russian revolution lol because there is a significant gap between the very poor and very wealthy here in NZ which is widening. But hey I suppose that could be seen as a good thing. Not sure how much economic growth will come out of a resentful population though’

    OK, now you’ve really gone and made a mess of things. Let me simplify things for you.

    1) Lower taxation means more money people have to spend, save or invest.
    2) Increases in consumption and investment mean higher profit and growth margins for companies.
    3) Higher profit margins and the need to expand to meet growth means more supply of employment – more jobs and higher salaries for employees.
    4) More jobs and higher salaries means more money people have to spend, save or invest.

    If the above steps are in any way accurate, it is easy to see that a society that implements high spending on welfare will force itself into a lower level of economic growth. A steady 1% economic growth rate compared to a steady 3% economic growth rate may not seem like much difference to you, but over 50 years a growth rate of 3% will cause the economy to grow by 338%, compared to 64% growth at 1% economic growth. There is a strong ‘national’ or ‘social’ (and also simply personal) incentive to reduce government expenditure and lower taxation.

    Let us go back to your earlier statement, that social improvement is a social issue. The high government spending on welfare leads to a reduction in economic growth. My argument is that NZ attitudes towards wealth and success are one of the root causes of this. These attitudes are reflected in the NZ public’s consistent voting for governments that tolerate high spending on social welfare. If national wealth and growth is to be attained then New Zealanders’ core values need to be reevaluated, starting with a rationalisation of the benefit.

    ‘there is a significant gap between the very poor and very wealthy here in NZ which is widening.’

    The way to resolve this is to create employment so that people can lift themselves up rather than pulling other people down.

  174. DTA says:

    Is that the understanding this article claims to promote? ‘How to rip off WINZ’?

    I beleive the title was meant to be sensational rather than thoroughly truthful, which seems to be a common trend of our media in general.

    I never disagreed that lower taxation is not a good thing, however I believe the limitation is in ensuring that the welfare of the few who cannot gain employment should be our foremost concern as opposed to expansion.

    And sure we would love to keep the best homegrown thinkers here and hopefully tax cuts will aid us in this.

    “The question at the heart of it all is whether NZ would be better off with or without the welfare state.”

    First you will have to give a detailed description of what you would classify as the obligations of a welfare state.. we are just talking about the benefit I pressume? If not then you would have to admit the costs of healthcare would outweigh the cost of dole beneficiaries for example, yet I don’t think anyone would argue that this is something we should remove or even limit to enhance economic growth. Though if what you say is correct it certainly seems like a logical step even if it certainly isn’t a moral one..

    So maybe it’s just a question of degree.. maybe you would say that a single mother with child should be allowed benefit money? Where do you draw the line? I agree that your ideas that we could just cut taxes by limiting welfare spending and thus immediately see the positive effects of this is a probable solution yet the outcomes are not entirely predictable as much as your theory follows logical processes.

    “The way to resolve this is to create employment so that people can lift themselves up rather than pulling other people down.”

    Currently our unemployment rate is the lowest in over two decades (3.8 % in 2006) yet you believe that more jobs is the solution to bridging the gap between rich and poor and thus help them to “lift themselves up”? Maybe a higher wage for the working class would be a better solution yet we can’t do that without economic growth.. damn.. and that’s why there is little incentive to find employment if you’re in a lower socio-economic position. It isn’t because the benefit is so desirable, it’s because the income from working a menial 9-5 job is not at all desirable. But hey they’re just complaining as usual right? Why should they get paid reasonably to do the jobs no one else wants to?

    And now I would argue that the biggest problem that has stunted our economic growth is the defecit this country is in from the investment you alluded to as opposed to the government spending up large on welfare. We as a nation consistently spend borrowed money which has driven up interest rates and property prices around the country. What happens when the property market goes the same way as the United States? Currently our unemployment rate is the lowest in two decades as mentioned earlier yet this will not last. The extra jobs from construction etc. which cater to those in a lower income bracket only exist as long as the demand in the higher income brackets for more housing exists in the current boom. Once the market collapses we will see a massive increase in redundancy. Might be handy to have a hankerchief and some form of social welfare handy..

    You’re right though, that being a welfare state hasn’t made New Zealand wealthy but I would say that the general ignorance shown by a large segment of the population particularly the individuals with the means to borrow and especially our finance minister and governor of the reserve bank has played a much greater role in stunting our economic growth. Perhaps if people had more of their own money as a result of lower taxation they would not need to borrow quite so much, but it still doesn’t solve our poor investment and spending choices. I’m fairly sure you won’t be guaranteeing that this will improve just by initiating tax cuts.. What we need is a complete revolution in the way New Zealanders invest and how they invest before the small factors like economic growth from tax cuts will even start to be a significant issue.

    However, your ideas could certainly benefit this nation in some way some day as long as the middle and upper classes control their borrowing and don’t drag our economy down first. Naturally if tax cuts are implemented however it will lessen the bitter taste in their mouths when they discover that their financial situation is looking a little shaky, but once again it seems that the unemployed are the ones missing out in all of this. Less jobs, limited benefit.. I just guess they can’t expect to have it easy forever..

  175. te bunny says:

    dave.
    i suggest you pik the carrot out of your arse and take a manners course because your attitude sucks shit i did not ask you for help so i suggest u shut it

  176. wealth creates says:

    ‘First you will have to give a detailed description of what you would classify as the obligations of a welfare state.. we are just talking about the benefit I pressume?’

    My political and economic methodology is the liberalisation of the NZ economy. Within this methodology there are of course excellent arguments for the reduction of health care spending that theorise the efficiency advantages provided by affordable private health care that is in turn covered by insurance. But for the sake of saving us some time and paragraphs, let’s limit the current question to the provision of the unemployment benefit.

    ‘Where do you draw the line?’

    I draw the line at the abolition of the unemployment benefit altogether.

    ‘Currently our unemployment rate is the lowest in over two decades (3.8 % in 2006) yet you believe that more jobs is the solution to bridging the gap between rich and poor and thus help them to “lift themselves up”?’

    There is no situation where the addition of more jobs cannot improve the average pay rate of employees. The more growth there is, the more demand for labour there will be to meet growth, and the higher employers will be willing to pay to gain a share of NZ’s limited labour market. Thus average wages will rise (as will net migration).

    ‘Maybe a higher wage for the working class would be a better solution yet we can’t do that without economic growth.. damn.. and that’s why there is little incentive to find employment if you’re in a lower socio-economic position. It isn’t because the benefit is so desirable, it’s because the income from working a menial 9-5 job is not at all desirable.’

    These “points” are answered by my paragraph above. Stop thinking in terms of injustice and start searching for potential remedies. Lower taxes also means lower taxes for low incomes. Demand for unskilled labour is likely to increase, resulting in more employment opportunities and higher wage rates.

    ‘the outcomes are not entirely predictable’

    no shit

    ‘We as a nation consistently spend borrowed money which has driven up interest rates and property prices around the country.’

    Wait, a few days ago you were arguing against a budget surplus, now you bring up the deficit as a problem? Can you not see that a budget surplus goes towards the repayment of this deficit? Also, isn’t NZ’s borrowing deficit comparatively low when contrasted with other countries, in particular the US?

    ‘What happens when the property market goes the same way as the United States? Currently our unemployment rate is the lowest in two decades as mentioned earlier yet this will not last. The extra jobs from construction etc. which cater to those in a lower income bracket only exist as long as the demand in the higher income brackets for more housing exists in the current boom. Once the market collapses we will see a massive increase in redundancy. Might be handy to have a hankerchief and some form of social welfare handy..’

    All this is extremely speculative, and not in any way relevant to the question of the unemployment benefit. But I would like to point out that the provision of the benefit during a low economic cycle will likely only put more pressure on the financial resources of the government.

    ‘You’re right though, that being a welfare state hasn’t made New Zealand wealthy but I would say that the general ignorance shown by a large segment of the population particularly the individuals with the means to borrow and especially our finance minister and governor of the reserve bank has played a much greater role in stunting our economic growth.’

    You really are talking about the housing market and the credit crunch here aren’t you? If and when there is a correction that hits NZ the same way that it has hit the US, and people suddenly resort to selling their highly-geared investment properties instead of holding on to their properties and waiting for a time when the price stabilises, which is the typical strategy used by most investors, given that the housing market is relatively stable and tends to go up over time (so long as they have not borrowed too much to finance their investments, resulting in a mortgagee sale), then accept it as part of the economic cycle and look forward to a time when the demand for employment picks itself up again. Alternatively, look to it as an opportunity to pick up a few cheap investment properties resulting from said mortgagee sales that will likely return to a level of price stability in a few years’ time.

    That said: not particularly relevant to the question of the unemployment benefit. But at this stage we might as well throw global warming into the mix.

    I do not feel my thesis has been challenged in any way, so I will simply conclude with a restatement of my position. The high government spending on welfare leads to a reduction in economic growth. NZ should abolish the unemployment benefit and reduce tax in order to stimulate long term growth.

  177. DTA says:

    My whole point in speculating on our current situation is because that is all we can realistically speculate on based on relavant facts at this point of time. For example where will this “growth” you talk about occur? Our economy is based on agriculture mainly.. there is only so much we can gain from our farmland. Most of the commodities we’ll spend the extra money from tax cuts on will mainly feed other economies since we produce very little.. but whoa we shouldn’t forget those woolen knits, huge economic potential there!

    I think the point i’ve been trying to make is, the benefit is in line with our current economic status. You are obviously arguing that in any case it should be removed regardless of the detriment to the unemployed and that’s where we disagree. You have provided what you consider a remedy to this problem yet it seems you focus only on the unemployed who are too lazy to get a job as opposed to the unemployed who cannot for various reasons gain employment. These could include a single person having to raise a family alone (I hope you will attempt this before marginalising these people) and others on the WINZ sickness benefit who cannot work due to medical conditions they suffer. Are you seriously suggesting removing all this just so the working population can sleep easy in their beds knowing that they’ve got an extra couple of hundred in the bank to spend on perishable and depreciating commodities? Because as much as you’d like to think people will all invest “sensibly” most people will just use it to buy an extra 12 pack of beers and some smokes..

    I won’t throw global warming into the mix, I will however ask what happens then to these people who cannot work and cannot gain benefit? Will you now suggest a poor camp where they can be rounded up and left to die of starvation so we do not have to see the negative aspects of your neo-liberalist ideals? Ok, i’m exaggerating a bit but seriously have you even considered the cases of people who simply cannot work? Yes, I will continue to throw problems at you to solve. Here’s another: have you thought about how this will impact on crime rates? Whats more important, keeping some lazy blacks off the street dealing crack or making John Key richer? haha nah but seriously it’s easy to theorise on what a utopia would be like but in reality the benefit suits the current social climate here in NZ and to be honest the morality of it is enough to justify its existence.

    Your utilitarian theory of the greater good which weighs quantifiable outcomes with non-quantifiable outcomes (or just ignores them altogether) does not present a compelling argument to anyone with a social conscience. That probably wasn’t your intention anyway, it really does seem to be about the quantifiable greater good here i.e. economic exspansion and on that you may win. I cannot argue that if we completely removed the benefit and limited healthcare we could probably ensure at least partial expansion over a period.

    But whatever else you might say to convince me, unless you can prove that this is not just a simple case of taking overall monetary benefits for some and weighing it against peoples basic right to have a reasonable standard of living then there really isn’t much else to say. “Stop thinking in terms of injustice” sounds like something out of the Bush administration manifesto..

  178. DTA says:

    btw I agree about reducing tax, I just take issue with what initiatives you abolish obviously.

  179. wealth creates fa6 says:

    ‘Most of the commodities we’ll spend the extra money from tax cuts on will mainly feed other economies since we produce very little.. but whoa we shouldn’t forget those woolen knits, huge economic potential there!’

    This is a common misconception about the role of small countries in international trade. It is also a self-defeating assumption. Reducing trade barriers enables small countries to specialise in certain industries that play to their strengths. I can hardly speculate which industries will benefit but it seems to me that tourism and agricultural exports are two likely areas.

    ‘I think the point i’ve been trying to make is, the benefit is in line with our current economic status.’

    What does this even mean? What is our ‘economic status’? Perhaps you mean our philosophical attitudes? These are what I suggest need changing.

    ‘Are you seriously suggesting removing all this just so the working population can sleep easy in their beds knowing that they’ve got an extra couple of hundred in the bank to spend on perishable and depreciating commodities? Because as much as you’d like to think people will all invest “sensibly” most people will just use it to buy an extra 12 pack of beers and some smokes..’

    It doesn’t matter. Consumption spending still aids economic growth. It’s not for people like us to tell or even speculate on how people elect to spend their money.

    ‘have you even considered the cases of people who simply cannot work?’

    Yes. A close member of my family is one of them. It’s true that people who are permanently disadvantaged will not fare as well under a liberalised economic programme. But there are several reasons why the disadvantages created by this scenario may not be as bad as you make out.

    1) People with long term disadvantages already fare poorly under the current system. This comments page has done nothing if not to highlight the problem that the present welfare system is inefficient and unfair, that case managers operate under unclear guidelines that allow them to withhold money, and that in many cases people feel that for whatever reason their needs are not being met.
    2) The degree of social concern is not going to diminish if we change the current political system. What will change is the number of people with the extra disposable income to invest in setting up and sponsoring charitable organisations. Charities operate often with the primary goal of drawing their cause to the attention of the public. What’s more, in order to be successful they must operate under a very high degree of public accountability – a bad report on a charitable organisation is likely to damage that organisation’s reputation beyond repair, whereas a bad report on WINZ will not sink WINZ. Even now, I would suggest to you that if you see a cause that is worth devoting your time and effort to, and you have either the time or the money to do so, then that is a worthwhile activity to pursue.
    3) In by far the most amount of cases, the fact that someone has a lasting disability or alternatively a high level of family responsibility does not mean that they are redundant to the labour market. In the case of a solo parent, the increasing casualisation of the market usually works to serve people who have limited time to devote to income generation. In my family member’s case, the organisation that helps to find him work has succeeded in employing him full time for the past three years, despite his disability. It is true that this organisation is sponsored by the government, but another model could work effectively that receives its funding from elsewhere. The point is that there are alternative remedies to what we perceive as social problems that do not always rely on government spending.

    ‘Will you now suggest a poor camp where they can be rounded up and left to die of starvation so we do not have to see the negative aspects of your neo-liberalist ideals?’

    Your suggested poor camp sounds to me like a waste of taxpayer dollars.

    ‘Here’s another: have you thought about how this will impact on crime rates?’

    I would suggest that more people actively working and greater opportunities would lead to a reduction in crime.

    ‘Your utilitarian theory of the greater good which weighs quantifiable outcomes with non-quantifiable outcomes (or just ignores them altogether) does not present a compelling argument to anyone with a social conscience.’

    Point taken. But it is interesting to consider that non-quantifiable outcomes are often positively impacted by quantifiable outcomes. An example is that a person who is experiencing depression & misery due to a lack of employment that gives him a feeling of aimlessness in life can have his spirits lifted when an opportunity arises that provides him with a fulfilling life role and income. In any analysis that involves public policy, although I concede that there are such things as unquantifiable outcomes, it makes sense to make a decision based on verifiable information that indicates social trends, and to implement strategies for action that stem out of this data.

    ‘unless you can prove that this is not just a simple case of taking overall monetary benefits for some and weighing it against peoples basic right to have a reasonable standard of living then there really isn’t much else to say.’

    I don’t agree that people have this right, and I don’t agree that redistributing income is necessarily moral. In any case, the ‘overall monetary benefits’ of economic growth ought to lead to benefits for everyone rather than just ‘some’, and if not, then for a larger degree than the minority currently supported on the unemployment benefit.

  180. DTA says:

    “The degree of social concern is not going to diminish if we change the current political system. What will change is the number of people with the extra disposable income to invest in setting up and sponsoring charitable organisations. ”

    I think here your earlier comment “It’s not for people like us to tell or even speculate on how people elect to spend their money” contradicts this statement. Maybe you’re merely suggesting that the potential is there to invest in charitable organisations, which unlike government initiatives can choose when and where the donations are allocated to. Yes WINZ has withheld entitlements, I think that would in fact support a reform in the benefit as opposed to your quick fix solution of removing it.

    Furthermore, are we to assume that segments of our population will be treated like third world citizens living day to day relying on people investing in charitable organisations? I think you will also find that New Zealand per capita has one of the worst charitable motivated populations in the world, i’ve got a nasty feeling that if we are to speculate, I’m not without basis for saying that the money will probably be spent on extra perishable commodities. As for public accountability; if there is no public interest in charitable organisations (which seems obvious) in the first place then how are improvements going to occur? However in the case of the benefit public accountability needs to step up to ensure people receive their entitlements. The goal isn’t to sink WINZ, it should be to improve it. Obviously you advocate for removing it altogether however, but your point about bad reports not sinking WINZ doesn’t translate to charities are great lets get stuck in..

    Basically your alternative remedies that do not rely on government funding seem to be unreliable and quite possibly unrealistic. Let me come back to the most basic human instinct: survival. From survival we gain self-interest. The reason we have the benefit is so we do not need to rely on people giving out of the “goodness of their hearts” to support the disabled and those unable to work.
    Yes, I am a cynic, but I believe that the social conscience in specific areas only exists as long as government policies draw attention to the problems. We could very much become just like the USA and have beggars on our streets if the government removed the benefit and do you really beleive that people will choose to spend even a portion of their tax subsidies on charitable organisations to help the homeless etc.? If so you’re more of an optimist than I thought.

    So maybe it will not (cannot) diminish but would you think it will increase based on the points above? Because that’s what will have to occur to make charities a feasible alternative.

    “Your suggested poor camp sounds to me like a waste of taxpayer dollars”

    I only suggest it as a means whereby non-quantifiable outcomes can be positively impacted by quantifiable ones..

    “I don’t agree that people have this right, and I don’t agree that redistributing income is necessarily moral. In any case, the ‘overall monetary benefits’ of economic growth ought to lead to benefits for everyone rather than just ’some’, and if not, then for a larger degree than the minority currently supported on the unemployment benefit.”

    Well you hold your view and I’ll hold mine. If what you envisage could be guaranteed to come to fruition i.e. many more jobs for people and NO ONE is homeless based solely on their socio-economic positon then I can’t say that that isn’t a great idea. But if its only for a larger proportion then that still isn’t good enough and if people are homeless well we’ve gone backwards as far as I can see.

    Utilitarianism is perhaps one of the worst concepts ever developed, it’s only concerned with quantifiable outcomes and coincidentally manages to quantify life.. However, if it is really like you make out; the best out of only two alternatives available then I wholeheartedly support it. Yet because you are unwilling to even contemplate a third alternative this makes me believe that this is merely another utilitarian theory which instead of solving a problem is really just concerned with solving some and a through a fully foreseeable result creates others. I still say reform the benefit if there’s a problem with it, it should be held accountable, but removing it is not a solution to all the problems, it’s just a case of swapping.

  181. wealth creates says:

    ‘I think here your earlier comment “It’s not for people like us to tell or even speculate on how people elect to spend their money” contradicts this statement.’

    Fair point. I will go so far as to speculate on how people might spend their money so long as I don’t tell people how to spend it.

    ‘Maybe you’re merely suggesting that the potential is there to invest in charitable organisations, which unlike government initiatives can choose when and where the donations are allocated to.’

    What I essentially mean by a charitable organisation is a private organisation that redistributes wealth on a voluntary basis, rather than enacting compulsory wealth redistribution out of taxation. I don’t think it is a legitimate function of government to redistribute wealth for social ends. Also, it is worth noting that charitable organisations are likely to be allocatively efficient: that is, they will distribute donations to the places where they are most needed. A working example of this follows.

    Under a free market economy, the success of a charitable organisation in raising the funds it needs to provide for the social ends it supports will depend on the ability of that organisation to make a strong case for its cause so as to persuade people to donate some of their income. It is likely that an organisation that supports independent single parents will receive more donations than an organisation that supports people who opt not to seek out active employment and instead stay at home and play Playstation. This implies a rational choice made on the part of the donor as to what needs are most important. This is opposed to the current welfare system, where many people are compelled to support a system they don’t necessarily agree achieves adequate social benefits, and is certainly inefficient and perhaps ineffectual.

    Regardless of whether you feel such organisations with a strong focus on making positive change close to home are likely to succeed, or have any selling points that may make them attractive to the NZ public, they are certainly going to be more efficient than public redistribution methods such as WINZ. When you think about it, if WINZ is allocated a certain amount of money each year, and case managers are entitled to withhold some of that money from benefit recipients, then that means that public money is not just paying for the actual benefit plus salaries and overheads but also for bonuses that the WINZ managers give themselves for deciding not to help people.

    ‘The goal isn’t to sink WINZ, it should be to improve it.’

    Even with the help of a reform that got rid of these inefficient processes, a government department like WINZ will never approach the level of efficiency that is required by the private sector. Also, don’t you think that contributions made voluntarily to charitable organisations are a more accurate reflection of people’s desire to help people in need than compulsory redistribution taken out of taxpayers’ pockets?

    ‘Basically your alternative remedies that do not rely on government funding seem to be unreliable and quite possibly unrealistic.’

    My entire purpose in suggesting the idea of charitable organisations as an option for meeting perceived social ends is to contextualise the level of poverty that you think will result from an economic rationalisation of social welfare and to show that this sort of process does not need to be handled by the government. These sorts of functions can be handled by private sector organisations. They are not necessarily likely to provide for as many disadvantaged people as the unemployment benefit, but at least they are capable of existing and will even be more efficient.

    ‘However in the case of the benefit public accountability needs to step up to ensure people receive their entitlements.’

    So what, formalise the right to a cell phone? Doesn’t that mean a lot of people will be getting some extra goodies paid for by the humble and ever-generous taxpayer? The first place I’ll be looking for evidence of this policy’s success is TradeMe to see first hand the flood of second hand cell phones on the market.

    ‘The reason we have the benefit is so we do not need to rely on people giving out of the “goodness of their hearts” to support the disabled and those unable to work.’

    So we force people to pay compulsorily from the heart and deny them even the petty generosity of a tax rebate?

    ‘Yes, I am a cynic, but I believe that the social conscience in specific areas only exists as long as government policies draw attention to the problems.’

    It should not be government agencies drawing attention to social needs, it should be people drawing the attention of the government to social needs. In a democracy the government ought not to have the mandate to act autonomously to address perceived social ends without voters indicating their support.

    ‘We could very much become just like the USA and have beggars on our streets if the government removed the benefit and do you really beleive that people will choose to spend even a portion of their tax subsidies on charitable organisations to help the homeless etc.?’

    If you believe strongly in a social cause then I urge you to put your time and money where your mouth is and work to help people in need.

    ‘So maybe it will not (cannot) diminish but would you think it will increase based on the points above? Because that’s what will have to occur to make charities a feasible alternative.’

    What will need to occur to make charities a feasible alternative is the amount of demand to assist people in need. There are two elements to this: private desire to see public welfare enacted, and sufficient disposable income to make a contribution like this both a priority and a viable option.

    ‘Well you hold your view and I’ll hold mine. If what you envisage could be guaranteed to come to fruition i.e. many more jobs for people and NO ONE is homeless based solely on their socio-economic positon then I can’t say that that isn’t a great idea.’

    I could never guarantee a thing like this. What I am saying is that there will be more jobs, higher economic growth, a more productive nation, and perhaps even fewer homeless than you would think.

    ‘you are unwilling to even contemplate a third alternative’

    On the very contrary, it is you who are unwilling to consider alternate models on social welfare. I am suggesting a move from the status quo. I don’t think you even suggested a third alternative, but if you have one I will hear you out.

    (I am going to side step the whole guff mini-argument about quantifiable analysis versus non-quantifiable analysis, because it is obvious to me that whenever you make a decision that involves cost such as catching a bus or filling up your petrol tank, you yourself use quantifiable analysis.)

  182. DTA says:

    I did offer a third alternative; reforms to the welfare system. You however only considered two alternatives to begin with. The first maintain the status quo and the second abolish the welfare system which is obviously what you support.

    “So what, formalise the right to a cell phone? Doesn’t that mean a lot of people will be getting some extra goodies paid for by the humble and ever-generous taxpayer? ”

    As I said above there should be reforms and there are some entitlements that should be removed, yet I don’t support removing all entitlements. I’m sure you meant to be ironic when you stated ever-generous taxpayer, I think we’d both agree it would be hard to find anyone giving money away so begrudgedly.

    “Also, don’t you think that contributions made voluntarily to charitable organisations are a more accurate reflection of people’s desire to help people in need than compulsory redistribution taken out of taxpayers’ pockets?”

    I believe that people contributing voluntarily or not and thereby determining how much desire there is to contribute is largely irrelevant when weighed against individual’s having their basic needs met. Although “giving from the heart” is hugely important in the case of welfare, I don’t see how it invalidates the morality of contributing even involuntarily.
    I know that personally I would have to be told by a legitimate authority to contribute or else I probably wouldn’t. It doesn’t mean however that because of my selfishness and inability to show empathy that people who depend on my charity should suffer. It’s so easy to preach yet when the time comes to, as you put, put your money where your mouth its interesting to find that those who were preaching loudest usually come up with the most excuses. (myself included)
    I think you should be advocating for legalising drink driving, The government removes the free choice of being able to drink and drive in order to reduce the road toll. Maybe you’re right though, doesn’t individual’s free choice to drive under the influence outweigh people’s right to life? This could have many monetary benefits such as the expansion of the the car manufacturing industry if we legalised drink driving. Since people will require more safety features to cope with the rise in risk, this in turn will create more jobs for car designers etc. thus increasing economic wealth and only at the cost of a few lives! Obviously this is a far fetched analogy yet it quite accurately parallels your neo-liberalist views on free choice.

    “It should not be government agencies drawing attention to social needs, it should be people drawing the attention of the government to social needs. In a democracy the government ought not to have the mandate to act autonomously to address perceived social ends without voters indicating their support.”

    Who won the last three elections.. I believe that labour winning should be enough of an indicator that society indicated it’s support for social welfare. At least be consistent if you’re going to attack the government for drawing attention to social needs. What about health? education? I’m sure you’ll find that support of state funded education for all would be the same as for social welfare since they’re both tax paid initiatives. But yes, why should all taxpayers have to pay for education either? Why not make that voluntary too so we can determine who really wishes to support the future of this nation.. ( yes im still on your voluntary/unvoluntary point)

    “I could never guarantee a thing like this. What I am saying is that there will be more jobs, higher economic growth, a more productive nation, and perhaps even fewer homeless than you would think.”

    You see this is where your argument is unsound, it makes the mistaken assumption that the monetary benefits to a majority outweighs the lives of a few. Perhaps you’re right though, your proposed outcome of increased monetary benefits for the working population at the expense of a few people becoming homeless is far superior compared to my model of no one based on their socio-economic status being homeless because if you can’t quantify something probably not worth anything.
    Ok, i’m exaggerating again but based on Marlow’s pyramid I do not see how someone having their most basic needs met at the expense of monetary benefits for others is unreasonable.

    Furthermore, in denying individuals their most basic needs in pursuit of monetary benefits you are treating them as a mere means to an end. You only have to look at history to see that this is how many of the worst attrocities and infringements on personal liberties were justified. There was a man in europe during the 1930s and 40s who held a similar view towards a demographic.. (apparently the Jews were taking over)

    If you could however prove that there would be enough public support for charities etc, and that thereby we could have the best of both worths (economic benefits and everyone having their basic needs met) then I would say christmas has come early

  183. DTA says:

    typo.. both worlds*

  184. DTA says:

    2nd typo: if you can’t quantify something it’s probably not worth anything*

  185. wealth creates says:

    ‘Although “giving from the heart” is hugely important in the case of welfare, I don’t see how it invalidates the morality of contributing even involuntarily.’

    Have you ever been introduced to the concept of moral relativity? What you hold to be moral may not be what I hold to be moral. (In fact it’s not.) The situation becomes even more complex when you hold up the comparative morality of 4 million people and try to legitimate your policy grounds on that basis. I’m surprised you are attending university and have not yet been introduced to this concept.

    ‘It’s so easy to preach yet when the time comes to, as you put, put your money where your mouth its interesting to find that those who were preaching loudest usually come up with the most excuses. (myself included)’

    You may choose whether or not to believe this statement as it is made on the Internet, but I support two non-profit organisations, one through regular payment and one through volunteer labour. I do this largely because of what I value and because I have the discretionary time and income to be able to afford it.

    ‘I think you should be advocating for legalising drink driving, The government removes the free choice of being able to drink and drive in order to reduce the road toll. Maybe you’re right though, doesn’t individual’s free choice to drive under the influence outweigh people’s right to life?… [guff] … Obviously this is a far fetched analogy yet it quite accurately parallels your neo-liberalist views on free choice. ‘

    I didn’t make this argument, you did, once again. Nor is this a reasonable analogy of what I am saying. The difference is of course between the regulatory role of government and the role of the government in the redistribution of wealth. Most ‘neo-liberals’ would allow for some funding towards a democratically elected body to enable it to perform its regulatory role.

    ‘Who won the last three elections.. I believe that labour winning should be enough of an indicator that society indicated it’s support for social welfare.’

    These are the attitudes that I suggest need revising. Whether or not they influence the next election does not concern me so much.

    ‘What about health? education?’

    I think I made myself clear when I said we would limit the debate to the unemployment benefit.

    ‘You see this is where your argument is unsound, it makes the mistaken assumption that the monetary benefits to a majority outweighs the lives of a few.’

    That is not a correct definition of unsoundness. Also my argument does not make that assumption.

    ‘Perhaps you’re right though, your proposed outcome of increased monetary benefits for the working population at the expense of a few people becoming homeless is far superior compared to my model of no one based on their socio-economic status being homeless because if you can’t quantify something probably not worth anything.’

    Zero people homeless is quantifying something right?

    ‘Ok, i’m exaggerating again but based on Marlow’s pyramid I do not see how someone having their most basic needs met at the expense of monetary benefits for others is unreasonable.’

    There are ways for people to meet their ‘most basic needs’ other than through the unemployment benefit.

    ‘Marlow’s pyramid’

    3rd typo: Maslow’s pyramid.

    ‘Furthermore, in denying individuals their most basic needs in pursuit of monetary benefits you are treating them as a mere means to an end.’

    This is an incorrect assumption. Economic liberalisation supports the basic ideas of empowerment and responsibilisation. It is the same basic principle as teaching a woman/man how to fish.

    ‘You only have to look at history to see that this is how many of the worst attrocities and infringements on personal liberties were justified. There was a man in europe during the 1930s and 40s who held a similar view towards a demographic.. (apparently the Jews were taking over)’

    I find this unbelievably insulting. How culturally insensitive can you be? Not to mention historically abstract. In fact for this reason alone I am not going to continue arguing with you.

  186. DTA says:

    Your argument is unsound as far as I can see since I contest the truth of one or more of its premises (which you say you did not hold).
    Now that you mention it I have heard of moral relativity, and our differing moral views are reflectant of it’s relevance here. I cannot say that my views are universal moral truths yet I feel that they at least bear relevance in this argument since you are the one who needs to convince the most pigheaded socialist that your views are both economically and morally sound before such changes can take place.

    “These are the attitudes that I suggest need revising. Whether or not they influence the next election does not concern me so much.” .. “The situation becomes even more complex when you hold up the comparative morality of 4 million people and try to legitimate your policy grounds on that basis”

    If you accept that the attitudes are based on moral viewpoints then it follows that the case of moral relativity in New Zealand is extremely complex like you say. Yet it proves that although there are differing moral views in the end majority has ruled in favour of the benefit. If you choose not to accept morality as the driving force behind approval for welfare and instead believe it to be driven by deeply ingrained cultural ideals then you may have a case to contest the objectivety of the voters.

    “Zero people homeless is quantifying something right?”

    You could say that but I like to think that you cannot quantify the positive impact of housing individuals. Again this is my view and does not speak universally since an economist might say it’s worth exactly as much as the extra productivety we obtain by housing them.

    “There are ways for people to meet their ‘most basic needs’ other than through the unemployment benefit.”

    Yet you say you cannot guarantee no one will be homeless.. Perhaps I’m thinking of a wider interpretation of basic needs than you.

    “This is an incorrect assumption. Economic liberalisation supports the basic ideas of empowerment and responsibilisation. It is the same basic principle as teaching a woman/man how to fish.”

    I took it for granted that we had agreed that there are individuals in society who cannot be “taught how to fish” as you put it. Empowerment and responsibilisation are pretty insubstantial to a person on the sickness benefit don’t you think?

    “I find this unbelievably insulting. How culturally insensitive can you be? Not to mention historically abstract. In fact for this reason alone I am not going to continue arguing with you.”

    The comparison was not meant to marginalise any of the sufferers of the Nazi regime (Jews, gypsies, homosexuals etc.) but rather to highlight how easy it is to perpetrate horrendous discrimination against a demographic when there are “gains” to be made. I take your point though and cannot say that this is an illegitimate reason for you to stop arguing with me.

  187. Stop complaining!!!!! says:

    Oh my god. Who knew the amount the conspiracy theories there were these days!!!

    Very simple, the benefit system is there to support a person/family until such time they are able to get back into work. Yes, there are those who may never work again due to an illness or injury or disability, however the majority of NZ can work, however alot choose not to because they are lazy. And no I am not referring to the single mums or to people who have legitimate reasons, hell I’m a single mother who at one stage was on the DPB (however I have been in full time work for the last 8 years). And yes I agree that the benefit rates including all the extras is crap, but at least we have a system that offers that. Take it away, then what?? A country filled with crime and poverty!!

    As for this crap that WINZ workers get paid a bonus if they don’t give out full and correct entitlement, if that was the case, then don’t you think they would turn down every benefit application or food grant or dental assistance!!?? For every 1 that gets turned down, there is probably 20 that have been granted.
    Ask yourself this, if you are constantly being declined by winz, then maybe your not entitled to the assistance, ever thought about that.

    They get trained for 12 wks and still it takes years to get a grip on all the legislation, so how can you expect the case managers to be able to tell you all you are entitled to in the half hour apt. That is what the web sites are for!!!

    How can you expect them to help you, when you are not prepared to help yourself.

    As for the Work Brokers, they are there to help find you a job, any job. If they can’t find their own dream job, why the hell would they help you find yours.

    If you are a student, surely you must have thought of the employment market for that particular area before you decided to spend 3 years studying??

    Yes I agree there are flaws in the system, but I refer to my above comment, take it away then what?

    I realise this may seem like I am defending WINZ, and I suppose I am, but it really bugs me that as a nation we continue to try and find fault in everything possible and blame everyone else for our misfortunes, rathar than face our own problems and make changes for the better.

  188. complaining!!!!! says:

    Ask yourself this, if you are constantly being declined by winz, then maybe your not entitled to the assistance, ever thought about that.

    Didn’t someone point out that there are no clear guidelines on who is and who is not entitled to extra benefits? Doesn’t that mean that case managers can just make stuff up as they go along?

  189. not for everybody says:

    good on ya i say.

  190. Nancy Donovan says:

    I am a single mother of 4 with no child support …..my kids are always hungary…
    we are on winz…..but there is never money for grocerys….how do you get that…
    yes they give 150.00 once a year for grocerys…….but……..duh……..than what….I just cant manage to feed them and they are always hungry….they live on chips…..
    I need help urgent bad……
    some one help me with grocerys will ya….18a cashmere rd…

  191. Jane says:

    It’s a good article, perhaps it could do without the assumption that you may or may not want a job as most students do, however there is a distinct lack of part time work available that can work around student hours.

    I do like the fact that this article arms you with the information you need to achieve your goals and help with life in the student system, it is a hard life and I know that only too well I myself am studying to be a midwife with 2 children and sometimes find it very hard to get by and your article has shown me what is available should I need it.

    The best weapon you can have today is information and I feel you have helped students who might know know their rights or haven’t had them explained properly.

    As for people who are talking about wasting tax payers money, I personally disagree as helping people to get an education will help them pay their taxes in future, nobody becomes a doctor without being a student first and the taxes will come. Education is a basic need in society and should be right up there in priority!

  192. Archduke FF says:

    “Students are the most-suffering group in this country and it is deeply immoral and unfair” – come off it mate, there are a lot of people worse off than students, sure most students dont live the high life but at least they all have a roof over their head and food to eat.

  193. Jane says:

    Nancy!

    Oh dear, there is help available to you! Not just through winz but through community work! Salvation army for instance can always help you out with budget advice and how to cook cheap foods (6 weeks courses) which will be much healthier for your children. Chips are actually quite expensive when you add them all up. Junk food is easy to grab sure, and we would all love to have it as easy as people with a good amount of money, however with some preperation you can be giving much better things to eat. You can buy $3 kilo bags of apples for your kids, hard boil some eggs the night before and give them egg sandwiches with lettuce.

    We feed a family of 4 for $50 per week, that’s breakfast, lunch, dinner & nappies. Not one packet of chips has crossed our children’s mouths that is given by us. And we have all of this information handy to us on how to keep the food bills down because of the budget services that are freely available.

    If it’s a debt sometimes you can get food parcels to tide you over until the debt is paid, truly it pays to take a look at these services.

    You’ll also find if you go and help out some of these places with volunteer work that you will make some contacts, through helping out manually we have quite a few contacts that we know we can rely on.

    Go and have a talk to you’re local sallies and sign up with them, sometimes they will assign you a worker to help you plant your own vegetables and help you to help yourself! You’d be amazed what you can grow in your own garden :)

  194. Dave Crampton says:

    Nancy, you should be able to get three food grants at $150.00 a pop every year.

    Jane, care to outline your budget here on this site. Even I find it hard to believe how you feed a family of four on $50 a week – with nappies, even if you make lunches. If nappies are at least $12 a week, thats $0.45c per person per meal.

  195. Gavin says:

    what about a “how to rip ACC” site?

  196. newB says:

    Besides working over 2 decades i have found myself back to where it all started. The benny. Yes im looking for employment. i want to work for winz but how do you get a job at winz?

  197. Matt Cohen says:

    Thanks for moving along the stereotype of a lazy and unmotivated dole bludging student you idiot!

  198. Nathan says:

    Winz is a joke really they are i am 18 years old i am disabled i found a job to get off my invalids benifit i asked for help with getting a full licence it was going to cost me $105.00 and guess what the fuckheads decided to be nice and decline it so now i owe 8900 in fines i owe 18995.00 to a finance company that was taken by the courts for unpaid fines for a car i have no licence and i have no job as i dont have a licence so i cant work. i left school at 16 because my father got cancer winz is more interested in helping people that done need help no offence to people on the benifit because i know what its like tring to find employment but what about people like butchers who on there off season and get help with there HT licences this costs around 1500 how can them fuck heads do that and not give me the 105.00 i asked for The only thing i have ever asked winz for :( Thanks winz for giving me such a hard life over 105.00 i hope you really sleep easy tonight

  199. mike says:

    If it wasn’t for the money what would life be? What happened to planting one’s own garden and living off the land? What happened to community? Why are there so many virtual jobs which pay so much and why does honest physical labour pay so little?

    These are all simple questions with complicated answers.

  200. Lyn Garrett says:

    WINZ wouldn’t have a clue about what’s going on under their nose and I don’t think they care either. I wrote to Ruth Dyson, the Minister, about a gigantic rip-off that I know has gone on and it took me three letters for her and/or her staff to understand what I was trying to tell them – got the most ridiculous, completely unrelated replies that could have been written by school children! Anyway the upshot was that they didn’t care. So I’m thinking of taking it to the ombudsman.

  201. WORK AND INCOME EMPLOYER says:

    WHO EVER CREATED THIS WEBSITE IS A NO LIFE FUKIN IDIOT WHO NEDS TO STOP INFORMING OTHERS OF HIS/HER OWN EXPERIENCES GET A REAL JOB MATE U DONT ACTUAL KNOW HOW HARD THE WORK IS UNTIL UR IN THE SHOES OF A CASE MANAGER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE DESK SO SAVE UR BULLSHIT COMMENTS FOR UR LTTLE BED TIME DIARY LOOSER.

  202. Dear ‘work and income employer’
    You can’t write, spell or seem to pull together a coherent thought. Here is where you have fucked up.

    “WHO EVER CREATED THIS WEBSITEIS A NO LIFE FUKIN IDIOT” Salient is an 80year old publication that was created by the University, the website is run by many different people (also I think you mean fucking not FUKIN).
    “WHO NEDS TO STOP INFORMING OTHERS OF HIS/HER OWN EXPERIENCES GET A REAL JOB” Dave Crampton’s job at Salient was to write pieces based on his opinion, I’m not sure if he was payed but if so that would make it a real job.
    “MATE U DONT ACTUAL KNOW HOW HARD THE WORK IS” terrible grammer and spelling aside you haven’t actually made a point yet “UNTIL UR IN THE SHOES OF A CASE MANAGER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE DESK” While Mr Crampton probably hasn’t worked as a case manager, you haven’t worked as a political columnist so its a bit hypocritical to attack him for that.
    “SO SAVE UR BULLSHIT COMMENTS FOR UR LTTLE BED TIME DIARY LOOSER.” ending your post with yet another spelling mistake only underlines your stupidity, and while it maybe your opinion that his article is “BULLSHIT” you really don’t explain why and resort to pathetic personal attacks.

    I also feel I should remind you that this column is FROM LAST FUCKING YEAR so the writer (Mr Crapton) no longer works for Salient and I doubt he is keeping up with comments on his previous work (possibly because he has what you called a “REAL JOB”). You are wasting your time and the time of those who work for salient, which you clearly never read nor have ever paid for (The magazine is partly paid for through VUWSA, but i doubt you have ever been to Victoria or any other University). If you’re going to criticize, try not being a moron while doing so.

  203. I have made spelling mistakes as well but my point still stands

  204. Dixie says:

    It is amazing to me that after 10 months after this article was printed that it is still getting large feedback from the Public.
    I was a student once and found it very hard bearing a job and studying full-time, our tertiary institutes, universities and pole techs encourage us to focus on our studies, but the fact is that some of us to live. there are three options a student has to get financial help when studying. Option One: get a part time job working Nights, and let your studies suffer, Option two, Student Allowance; if you can get it and your parents that have nothing to do with your financier’s and don’t support you earn to much money. “ohhh sorry dad can you stop earning those thousands of dollars you earn a year so i can go study without being on the bones of my arse. Or option 3 which is borrow $150.00 a week to support u in your studies. Well i did Option 3,

  205. Dixie says:

    i couldn’t work, my course ran from 8 in the morning until 8 at night i was studying two full time courses thinking i could get ahead in life, how wrong i was. My parents that lived 100 killometers away were earning way too much, so i couldnt get on the student allowance, so i had to borrow. I sit here thinking and reading all of your nice comments. Different people have different circumstances, although we should be treated the same and fairly as you would to your children. I understand why so many qualified people are moving overseas, as why would you stay here no-one helped you study, no-one gave you support to study. I am a firm believer that to grow the NZ economy we need to keep qualified people in this country and to do this we need to help our students through their study. I am now working full – time and i would quite happily pay taxes knowing it is going to a student trying to get qualified in something he or she is good at. What i am not happy about is paying taxers for doll buggers that sit on their arse all day and claim a benefit that they don’t deserve, its there so they can live.
    Do i blame these doll buggers, fondly enough no, i don’t blame them. If u had two options of studying, working ur arse off, living on the bones of your arse and racking up a huge Student loan OR sitting on your arse and getting paid too, what would u do.
    Its the same as saying if you saw $20 on the ground would you pic it up, u know its someone elses, u know that the right thing to do is to turn it in, but who would do that, this is human instinct, if we can get something for free we are ganna go for it.

    I have sat here for two hours now being very intrigued with the comments you have posted on this article, Some of you have very valid points, and others are just wanting to pick holes, not saying thats a bad thing because everyone has a moan every now and then, it may be about the weather, it may be about rising fuel prices.
    To the Salient Magazine, I congratulate you on your work and find this article has many good points that need to be expressed in bigger way. A lot of qualified students are moving away and all we do is talk about it, unfortunately talking is not going to help, we need to do more, it may make good reading, but has little effect.
    There are no groups no councils nothing that help students with their problems and i am wondering why,

  206. clarke says:

    Maybe its still getting large feedback because its an issue that still stands.

    Dixie – have you tried to live on $150 recently? the extras are there because they’re ways to ‘help’. Knowledge is power and all that and if you don’t ask you don’t get. A bit like a VUWSA diary.

  207. Dixie says:

    Yes i have although as my parents earn to much i cannot get financial help, but i can quite happily go on the unemployment benefit

  208. cam says:

    blah blah blah….. just thought i would add my two cents!! what a pack of losers whinging and carrying on like old ladies at a tea party! Many people on here should go take up bowls and sit round talking to ya grandad bout how the maoris wrecked this country etc etc….. LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY! BY 2012 THE WORLD WILL BE COMPLETELY FUCKED AND WILL BE PLUNGED BACK INTO A 1600′S TYPE ERA. THERE WILL BE NO MONEY!, NO JOBS, NO PETROL! ETC ETC. NOTHING WILL MATTER ANYMORE SO YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME EVEN THINKING ABOUT THIS….. GO HAVE A GOOD TIME AND LOVE AND LEARN AS MUCH AS YOU CAN BEFORE THEN. DONT WASTE YOUR TIME AND ENERGY ON ANYTHING TRIVIAL IN LIFE. EVERY ANCIENT CIVILISATION, RELIGION AND EVEN SCIENCE NOW REALISE THAT THE END IS VERY NEAR SO SPEND ALL YOUR TIME THINKING HOW YOU WILL SURVIVE.. THAT COULD BE YOUR ONLY HOPE!
    THANX….

  209. Holly-k8 says:

    How do I find a WINZ advocate?

  210. Ulysses says:

    I have to say that the people who wrote this article are a bunch of arseholes.

    You wrote the article deliberately to portray obtaining legitimate benefits from WINZ as how to “ripp off” WINZ. You think that your style is ‘funny’, ‘humour’ or ‘edgy’.

    You are a bunch of real shitfaces for doing this. Right wing wankers posing as poor students. Why are so many of the comments printed so far pissed off about “people ripping off the taxpayers of NZ”? Because that’s the outcome you *arstards aimed for and you got it.

    Humour is a powerful weapon even wanky twisted right wing uni student humour, and you *unts tapped right into it to get the result you planned for. Judith Collins will love you for doing her job for her.

    Try being a sole parent with three kids on the DPB and going in for a food grant when the kids have got nothing to eat and the case manager humiliates you. Try the real world of welfare you *ocksuckers before writing such shit. *uck you and damn what you have done.

    Ulysses S FoodGrant

  211. Ulysses says:

    I have to say that the people who wrote this article are a bunch of arseholes.

    You wrote the article deliberately to portray obtaining legitimate benefits from WINZ as how to “ripp off” WINZ. You think that your style is ‘funny’, ‘humour’ or ‘edgy’.

    You are a bunch of real shitfaces for doing this. Right wing wankers posing as poor students. Why are so many of the comments printed so far pissed off about “people ripping off the taxpayers of NZ”? Because that’s the outcome you *arstards aimed for and you got it.

    Humour is a powerful weapon even wanky twisted right wing uni student humour, and you *unts tapped right into it to get the result you planned for. Judith Collins will love you for doing her job for her.

    Try being a sole parent with three kids on the DPB and going in for a food grant when the kids have got nothing to eat and the case manager humiliates you. Try the real world of welfare you *ocksuckers before writing such shit. *uck you and damn what you have done.

    Ulysses S FoodGrant

  212. Harry Hardcore Shoes says:

    i raise my kids with a forklift get it

  213. Azz Mataz says:

    HAHA good article!!!

    In my opinion – as a student on the student allowance – i think that you may as well sit on the dole or get money from the government for a year or so, or when and if you can! I mean, the way i see it, your just getting back all the tax your gonna end up paying in the future anyway… so that tax may as well go to yourself, not some road down the street.

    All you old fashioned, one sided, ignorant, and pompous gits who have complained about “laziness” and why people dont just “get a job” are obviously bored with your monotonous 9-5 jobs, and are victims of the rat race – those who live to work, not work to live. you all should just relax a bit and chill the fuck out. Get off your high horse and realize that just because you do things a certain way, it doesn’t mean that its the right and only way to do things.

    i think thats the main problem with mainstream New Zealanders – along with the constant whinging and whining that you see everywhere theres a chance to make a “comment” (e.g. this discussion).

    live and let live!

    life’s more then just work

  214. Michael Oliver says:

    I hope we don’t have to wait another 215 replies to get a reply on par with Harry Hardcore Shoes’ again.

    “Try being a sole parent with three kids on the DPB and going in for a food grant when the kids have got nothing to eat and the case manager humiliates you. Try the real world of welfare you *ocksuckers before writing such shit. *uck you and damn what you have done.”

    As someone whose body is slowly rotting from the inside out due to an autoimmune disease and as such has been through the washer known as WINZ in an attempt to gauge out some sort of financial respite, I feel qualified to comment. I found that if you organise yourself and leave absolutely no stone unturned when applying for any kind of WINZ assistance, the system will take care of you. There is an onus on the part of the applicant to have all their I’s dotted and their T’s crossed before entering a WINZ office, and I certainly made sure of that when I applied for my sickness benefit. Organisation is the absolute key – the absolute key.

    I dunno, maybe after years of working with complete fuckwits who waddle on in and say “HOOK US UP WITH SOME CASH, DAWG!” they felt like being nice to me.

  215. Thomas Laughlin says:

    Some of us, due to circomstances out of our own control, actually need the money and don’t know how to get it, so despite the outright “cheating” as defined by this article is actually a big help.

    Thomas

  216. Peter J says:

    To Michael Oliver and others who may be in his unfortunate circumstances. If you have a condition from which you are unlikely to recover for over six months you should be on an invalids benefit, not a sickness benefit – it pays more in recognition of your longterm needs.
    Many case managers will tell you that you have to be on the S.B. for this period (6 months) before you qualify, this is incorrect. You can go on it immediately providing a medical assessment shows your eligibility.
    You need to see your case manager again, (preferably with any related documents from your doctor/specialist) and fill in the relevant form – APPLICATION FOR INVALIDS BENEFIT. You will then be referred to a DESIGNATED DOCTOR for assessment (WINZ/ SW will pay for any transport costs) and if approved the benefit shall be applicable from your date of application.
    DON’T LET YOUR CASE MANAGER TALK YOU OUT OF FILLING IN THE APPLICATION AND SUBMITTING IT. Until you’ve done so, you haven’t applied, you’ve just had a discussion and changed your mind. Some case managers will belittle you or tell you you haven’t a hope. They’re wrong, be polite BUT stand you’re ground. Any application, no matter how unlikely to succeed MUST be accepted. If it is subsequently turned down it must be done so in writing. You can (and should) then appeal. When you win,and if you’re in the right you eventually will, whatever was applied for will be backdated to the date of initial application.
    HELP ADVICE when dealing with WINZ:- If you feel you may have problems take a friend! It gives you confidence and I’ve found that case managers invariably become more “user friendly”. You can get help from advocacy groups in most cities and some towns. Citizens Advice Bureaus can also support. Check the web.

  217. Michael Oliver says:

    If I’m going to be wearing the a badge that says “invalid”, I’d much rather it be as recognition for writing the sports column,

  218. Peter J says:

    Further to my last comment, I’ve just checked the WINZ website and see that to be eligible for an I B the expected period of disability is now two years. Other observations as before.

  219. Peter J says:

    Good on you Michael, however not everyone is as fortunate. They deserve not to be short changed by a system most have paid in to for years.

  220. Harmony says:

    I lived in Australia for 2 and 1/2 years. while we were over there, my husband was diagnosed with leukemia. Fancy that happening to my 28 yo husband. I’m 24 and we have 2 children under the age of 2 together. Being on the benefit has helped us because there is absolutely no way that I am able to work, especially when all the pay that i would get would go straight into daycare. My husband is still in hospital 8 months down the track and is now paralysed from the chemotherapy. So now, not only do i have to look after my 2 children and myself on my own, I have to be the sole carer for my invalid husband as well. To all those students who think that life is hard for you, there is always someone way worse off than you. And I know for a fact there are people out there who are worse off than me. If it wasnt for WINZ being there to support us financally, we would be living on the streets. You should ask all the questions you can think of when you go see you Case worker, tip don’t go in and ruin it for the rest of us who actually need this. Thats the whole reason why we can’t survive on the benefit alone.

  221. Michael Oliver says:

    I self medicate and deprecate as you no doubt appreciate

  222. Ash says:

    i think this is absolutely BRILLIANT!!! …… and to all of you bitching and moaning about bludgers etc…. Go crawl under a rock and fucking die!!! ive spent the last 4 years working my arse off for a company and i just got made redundant…. am i a “bludger” and “ripping off the taxpayers” because i applied for the unemployment benifit??
    Get some prospective you fuckwits, alot of people dont get full entitilment because they dont know what they are entitled to….
    And they way I see it… I AM spending the last 4 years of MY FUCKING TAXES!!!!!!

  223. JJoel says:

    bludger

  224. Gibbon says:

    get a job

  225. Michael Oliver says:

    get a guitar

    play some tunes

  226. simg33k says:

    Im all for this, I lost my job as a sales rep a few months ago (not due to my own actions) and went through hell trying to get on the benifit due to “procedures” eventually even ended up homeless again due to “procedures” now im finally getting an education and moved just the other day into a new flat from the couch ive been living on at a mates for 2 months cause i couldnt find work or get any aid getting anywhere to find work and applied to try get a $40 bed to sleep on and got declined because i purchased a cellphone due to my old one dying. These winz and studylink workers are right fucking tossers who seemingly enjoy wasteing our time and making us do running around for nothing. Also im also way too white and have to go through all the procedures and crap involved with getting any entitlements. They need to increase the amount you get to a realistic standard to live of, im only on 150pw and due to doing some quite intensive classes and am stuck at uni all day dont accually have the time to work. Sure some of you might say i could work evenings but i challenge you to spend a day at uni then go to work for the evening only to come home and do readings and assignments.

  227. Gibbon says:

    o well, how come you didn’t have some savings to get you through some tough times?

    weird.

    you should see my schedule.

  228. Carlos says:

    I absolutely agree to the articule, with the how to’s etc on how to get assistance HOWEVER I don’t agree with the title on how to rip off winz. None of what has been said in the articule is “ripping of winz”. It is all assistance that is there and is available to the public.
    NZ needs to get away from this perseption of how to rip people off, what kind of country are we living in when information that is true and correct is lablled as ripping off. Case managers are obliged to let you know what assistance is there for you, and yes there are case managers who are arseholes who think it is there own money they are paying out of their own wallet, however majority of them are quite good at what they do and if they can help out they will
    If people were to go into the offices with everything they need, then there may not be a need to do a whole lot of running around. In my experience, always take in ID, a bank balance and quotes for what ever you are needing. Never leave your application at reception, always book an appointment to see someone, and get it registered even if they do say no, that way it is all recorded in the event that they are wrong and it can be back dated.
    The welfare system is there to help out those in financial need, and there is nothing they can do about rates of benefits as they are all set in concrete.
    If you need it use it, if you don’t need it, get the fuck off your arse and go to work cos it just makes it hard for the genuine cases.

  229. Carlos says:

    And as for “I have been a tax payer all my life so I’m just getting my money back” do you really think that all of your tax money goes to the benefit system?? Did you ever stop to think that taxes are used for other things we use in our every day lives?? Time to let go of this way of thinking NZ.

  230. possum42 says:

    Hmmm looking at your opinions interesting reading this article insulting,there is no magic formula people are always going to complain however case managers I do not feel are the issue its the middle management that are the problem for WINZ some one from wellington in a suit shouldnt be barking orders to dunedin and vise versa thats what goes wrong with WINZ they are taking orders yet the case managers bear the brunt of the public, I pitty them because they are cannon fodder to the clients imagine tryig to deliver policies and practices that somebody told them to do would that seem fair ?

  231. daman says:

    How the hell can those who say to get a job say that when they dont actually know the cirumstances of each individual here.

    Yeah yeah, theres some good winz case officers and theres some bad ones thats for sure, but that comes with every job, good and bad ones.

    Why post your personal earnings and for a comparence, who gives a fuck, your not the fucken idol we want to look up too.

    Hes just given you some information on what your entitled too. ALTHOUGH the title is pretty gay lol

  232. Hailee says:

    you fuckwits. Im on the DPB and i do not plan on staying on it. I get ashamed when i have to walk into my local WINZ branch- its all about pride really. in the 3 years i have been with winz i have only ever asked them for a washing machine and a brand new car seat. Never a food grant, or clothing grant or even advanced payments for bonds etc. you dont have to do that shit unless its an absolute emergency. theres another thing you can do, its called SAVE AT LEAST $10 A/P P/W and dont touch it!! how hard is that??

    at the mo, the quality of my childrens lives is only as good as the DPB. the benefits are actually for people who “need” them- not for morons like you to try and “rip them off” or “milking them” or watever.

  233. casey says:

    AMEN to that! I’ve had chronic fatigue syndrome caused by a virus. I didn’t even know I had a virus for a whole year because i was trying to keep up with everyone.I was a perfect student at school. I worked at a lawyers..i would much rather be earning $15 an hour than live on $10 a day that WINZ supply
    and to pay for the counselling of the abuse i went through for 2 years…held at knifepoint and other traumatic events though i still managed to finish school and do my exams whilst having a virus and i would have police come and then go to school or work the next day.
    please be more considerate when writing something like this..
    it’s a shame if something happened to you.

  234. Michael Oliver says:

    I wondered where these random hoards of people with WINZ-related stories who clearly have no affiliation with VUW (or have even read the fucking article they’re commenting on) were coming from.

    Then I googled “WINZ” and discovered that this article was the third result returned, and with its “ironic” title and whatnot, tended to stick out like a sore thumb.

    So, uh, thanks, guys.

  235. buzy bee says:

    all work and income employees are judmental… power tripping over money thats not even their’s … acting like they can read every character that walks through the doorz thinking they know what everybody’s situation is… I think work and Income need to teach their employees how to treat people with respect and not judge them by what they look like or how they act…find out what their current situation is first b4 they judge “know me b4 u judge me” 2 all those work and Income employees that have written comments trying to stick up for urselfs WHATEVER ur all the same !!!! if there are any loosers it would be the work and income employees no people skills…

  236. Matthew_Cunningham says:

    239 comments – that’s got to be a record!

  237. chareece says:

    i agree with michael above,,googled, sore thumb, here u all are!..hi good thread this is. i just went from th dpb to the unemployment bene cuz i have a new partner. dus anyone know if i can apply to ird for child support from the father of my 2 kids

  238. Tuna says:

    “Power brings authority and if you can use it then you can definitely manipulate it….”
    as a mother of 1 dependent and a dp beneficiary, (as the employee) and WINZ (boss), call centre provides resourceful information and have been overwhelmed about the contact representative assistance to be more courteous and considerate than the case manager….I was made redundant after 17 years of hard earned cash put back into the so-called NZ economy. With the main bread winner (ex) feeling vunerable, opted out of a 12 year relationship, uped and left with 2 of our kids, giving no consideration of how or where my next meal came come from….Since than, I have worked part time for 4 years and nearing completion of a diploma in BA, have not yet encountered a bad mouth case manager sitting in the comfy chair (stand up), who may assume to hold the power of authority in his/her hands or make judgemental decisions from inexperienced heresay as being the final and absolute word of WINZ…..should be reviewed on work ethics and standards and as far as I’m concerned, “if I don’t ask, then I won’t know and what I don’t know, I won’t get”

  239. beboy says:

    im off ta winz

  240. bobylena says:

    ahahahahahahahahahahaha bludy ha!!
    wat a mean website love it
    thanx for the advice hahahahahahahahahaha

  241. dave says:

    WOW this is STILL going? Perhaps it needs a followup

  242. Tim says:

    The money taken from Winz is spent in the economy which pays wages and generates taxes, pays for essentials and keeps the wheels turning in this money machine.
    There is such a formulae which can provide the amounts earn’t by the private sector from people who get there spending money from Winz.
    There is no complaint from the big supermarkets and power companies when the govt spends $180 million per week via Winz.
    We are all generating this money machine.
    One thing I don’t understand is “if a person recieves benefit and is then asked to pay back the money because they have a small income on the side. why is that spending that they did at the local shops or at the kebab shop such a bad spend in the eyes of society” The way I see it is the economic system is boosted by the dole money spent and all who spend into society as a whole help small business make money.
    It is a biological Kreb cycle of money creating money.
    This system helps our world go round.
    Thank goodness for this foresight, which keeps the wolves from the door and the poor Housed.

  243. chxta says:

    Winz has helped me and my family in so many fuckin ways its not funny, bills have to be paid before the kids get fed – you cant cook if the powers been cut that would defeat the purpose, and for all those who think theyre fucking over the system wait till you get snapped and get done for fraud then us buggers who deserve the best in life will be laughing at you little wankers. Aint nothing wrong with going for a food grant its not embarrassing! embarrassing is where you have to ask neighbours or family for money to feed your little ones! Winz is there to help so go for gold if it wasnt for people on the benefit the case managers wouldnt have jobs so i dont reckon theyll mind, ive been a student before and its hard so if you need help ask thats what they there for!

  244. benefit or prison?? says:

    i just want to say that I’m on a benefit as i have been sick. My oldest son has coeliacs disease (which means basically he cant eat any gluten – breads, pasta etc) and a sympton of that is no dairy as well. gluten free bread is $5-6 per loaf and they are half the size of a normal loaf of bread. to make your own is not much difference in price either. yet after months of trying to prove what he ate and how much it costs, i get $20 per week to cover it. he’s 12 and that would cover 4 loaves of bread!! (which is equivalent to 2 normal loaves) if you have a 12 year old boy, you would know he can eat more than that in a week.
    i would like to know why people in prison have a better life than the good people (who may or may not be on a benefit) who havent commited any crimes and ended up prison? they get 3 meals a day. they get heating and they get to hang with their mates on a regular basis. they have better chances of getting health care when they need it as well. why not make prison suck? no heating, bread and water or 2 minute noodles for food and mabey a suppliment tablet to cover anything else and constant solitary confinement? (thats kind of what its like on a benefit for many people) in a comment make early on, someone mentioned that they live on 20,000 a year while each prisioner cost 90,000 a year to live. why do they deserve to live a better life than us? they are the ones who kill our families, rape our woman, steal our cars, rob our houses and yet… they have better food and healthcare than i do because im on a benefit due to a sickness i got from being raped by a jackass who has a better life than me in prison. is that fair???
    mabey instead of complaining of who is on a benefit and why, mabey what should be discussed is why prisioners have more rights than the good people of new zealand and how the goverment can take money from the prison system and put it towards people who need it. make prison a place where no one wants to go and maybe people would have more tolerance for each other and be nicer to each other because prison is not where you want to be.
    im sick through no fault of my own… ( i wonder how many prisoners say that lol) and i would like to be able to live with out the constant struggle. maybe i should commit some hideous crime so i can eat better than i do now as all my money goes to my son so he can eat gluten free food that work and income dosnt give me enough money for. i go hungry so my son can stay healthy.
    so please just think about what you are complaining about and complain about something that DOES affect everyone… crime and the money spent on prisoners.

  245. meanmaorimean says:

    Wow! Awesome dude. Just been educated.Things youve highlighted on the WINZ system, I never even new about and I’ve been in this system for 20 odd years.WINZ dont tell you about your entitlements, which at that time was very important. My boys are all old enough to live on their own… and hoping that they don’t fall into the same system. But in saying that theirs fuck all jobs out there, the Govt is so in debt with the rest of the planet is why we’re paying tax, and prices just keeps going up..etc..what the fuck!

  246. Chris says:

    Well, I was told today by my case manager that I should have asked for an assessment from my old case manager before I moved to make sure I could afford it. When I said she didn`t do that she replied that I should have asked, how can a person possibly know all the questions to ask. As a result I have $21.00 a week for food, power, and phone. It is absolutely crazy that I am being led to believe that it`s my own fault because I didn`t know the question to ask. I have a three year old in my care, what do they want me to do, maybe foster him out so I am able to work fulltime. I am studying as well, it is very hard to concentrate if haven`t eaten for 4-5 days, the hungry feeling passes after a while. I won`t be able to sit my exams because I have no petrol to get there.
    Does anyone know how to make anyone at W&I admit a mistake or rectify bad advice? Is it the Ombudsman?

  247. Michael Oliver says:

    I can has a benefit?

  248. winzbitch says:

    Boy I have a lot to say

  249. winzbitch@remailed.ws says:

    There are basically 2 groups of people in this country, they are the have’s & the have nots. Those persons who’s majority of income is supplied by WINZ, in the long term are clearly the have nots. They may have a list of the following issues:

    1. Non relevant qualifications for the majority of industries in New Zealand.
    2. No qualifications, which leaves them to be cheap scab labor used as pawns by the WINZ system & casual or seasonal employers.
    3. Lack of adequate skills to enter into there job of choice.
    4. Lack of work of experience in a particular line of work, they would like to enter into.
    5. At least 1 heath concern that inhibits, for full time ongoing work.
    6. 1 minor or major health concern, that inhibits there ability to work full time, or because of there illness or disability they are only able to work on a part time basis.
    7. Quite often a lack of the necessary social skills to build strong positive working relationships with employers & other employees.

    In my case I’ve struggled with Mental Illness & stress issues from working in high stress jobs, that are poorly staffed in industries thats focus is on the business & the money side of things solely, not taking into the account pratices to make the workplace a healthier & safer enviroment.

  250. FiFi40 says:

    Dave

    As an ex WINZ case manager can you tell me why when they abate peoples benefits they calculate it on the grosss of extra income but take it off the net? Clearly this is wrong and most people don’t even realise. Also when did you work for WINZ?

  251. dave says:

    Chris,
    if you’re in wellington, go to the Peoples Centre and get a benefit advocate. And get a “review of decision” form. fill it in and give itto your case manager pronto. And apply for a food grant.

  252. gturner says:

    if u pay tax or have paid tax get it back. fuck the government. let the rich get richer and the poor get poorer? nah ah be smart money is money take what u can. every one else does

  253. You are more than welcome to continue these blog comments regarding issues with winz at http://winzbitch.blogspot.com/

  254. Pete says:

    We are fortunate or unfortunate to have a Winz department where you can apply for life and no qualification needed only age requirement. This blog been going for over 2 years comments are similar but situation still the same. Different faces same crap. NOW MY WORDS OF BRILLIANCE. Taxes to high wages to low, Lower the taxes increase wages then we can all live happily ever after. Now is that going to happen NAH…. be optomistic lol ?

  255. Wee Hamish says:

    Pete, get out.

  256. Mystery says:

    Threads have life of their own, google Winz and this is third entry and other random Salient comments threads that keep going are google – pole fitness and mayan calendar among others…

  257. Wee Hamish says:

    Google, get out.

  258. Wee Hamish says:

    Internet, get out.

  259. Gibbon says:

    Wee Hamish, get back in the overhead storage container.

  260. bert says:

    you are either a parasite (feed from the eforts of others to survivie) or you are not. Some rich people are parasites as they no longer work and get others to make their money for them. Some poor people are parasites as they no longer work and get others to make money for them.

    Saying that taking money you have not earned is ok and ‘everybody does it’ is half a step above monkey. This has nothing to do with how much money you have. I know rich people who make a living off of the sweat of others and I know poor people who also make their money off of the sweat of other people (beneficiaries). When push comes to shove the working class would eat both the poor and rich alive as they have to be strong of body and mind to continue the daily battle.

    The strong have always carried the weak and if you don’t mind being carried then I guess money is the least of your worries. I support myself and 5 other people, I earn a good salary but eat alot of stews, grow a vege garden and live in very modest conditions. Money does not determine your status, honest hard work does.

  261. Michael Oliver says:

    Cool, thanks for that, Bert

  262. Jackson Wood says:

    That’s it. Editorial prerogative engaged:

    COMMENTS ON THIS POST ARE NOW CLOSED

    If you want to bitch about WINZ you can ring them on 0800 559 009.

    If you want to bitch about Salient you can email fuckoff@salient.org.nz

    If you want to bitch about life in general find an open space, raise your fist into the air and let it all out.